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...supposés déterminer comment...
amours de vélours sans détours ni contours
Jun 26, 2012 14:47
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

le "tu" tue

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
This is from a text explaining that "I" statements are preferable to "you" statements because they don't make the listener defensive. There is a mnemonic pun in French - "le 'tu' tue." Is there an equivalent in English?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +9 don't use "you"s
3 +4 I for life, You for strife
4 +1 Avoid the blame game
4 +1 keep an "I" on the subject, use "you" and they'll object!
3 +1 finger pointing
4 Remember: "you" yells
3 second person singular sends situations south
3 There's no "I" in "TEAM"
2 you is a downer

Discussion

Rowena Fuller (X) Jun 26, 2012:
"I" is a tool, "You" is not cool ... gawd you could go forever with this thing!
Rowena Fuller (X) Jun 26, 2012:
I suppose there is room to play with the English familiar of 'thou' - but I can't think how.....
JH Trads Jun 26, 2012:
'you' is also much less strong than 'tu' as it also means 'one' in many cases...well, 'you never know...'
JH Trads Jun 26, 2012:
not necessarily irrelevant as you point out, managers address reports using 'vous'. Just yesterday, it was announced in France that police officers will have to address everybody using le 'vouvoiement', as the 'tutoiement' can be considered disrespectful, too familiar and as increasing the 'finger pointing' aspect which would not be so strong with 'vous'. Mind you, I am not saying 'you' are wrong :) 'Vous' avez sans doute en partie raison et au fond 'on' a tous un peu raison :)
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 26, 2012:
The "vous" aspect is irrelevant in this context (even though I agree that a French manager would be more likely to use "vous" than "tu"). The text is just suggesting that you frame your message in "I" statements so that the listener doesn't get defensive and shut down. This is basically pop psychology -- it also comes up in marriage counseling where couples learn how to fight constructively.
kashew Jun 26, 2012:
I repeat; And what about the "vous" question? Are these managers talking down to there subordinates? I'd just translate it (Use I and not You).
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 26, 2012:
This is the complete sentence:
• Prohiber l’accusation (JE vs tu / le TU tue)

It's just a bunch of bullet points telling managers how to communicate with their subordinates.
JH Trads Jun 26, 2012:
double difficulté pas de tutoiement/vouvoiement en anglais + 'you' veut au contraire parfois dire 'on/tout un chacun'
kashew Jun 26, 2012:
Maybe you could do something with "shuts down/up" - but reproducing the FR wordplay would be miraculous I reckon.
And what about the "vous" question?
Wolf Draeger Jun 26, 2012:
Is this part of a poem or novel? If so, do you have some of the preceding/subsequent text?

Proposed translations

+9
18 mins
Selected

don't use "you"s

My own invention, not an established phrase as far as I know
Peer comment(s):
agree Barbara Carrara : Brilliant, Kate!
6 mins
Thanks Barbara! [blushes]
agree Philippa Smith
17 mins
Thanks Philippa!
agree Rachel Fell
21 mins
Thanks Rachel!
agree Colin Rowe : Nice one!
27 mins
Thanks Colin!
agree Diana Alsobrook
44 mins
Thanks Diana!
neutral MatthewLaSon : Hello. The rhyme , or even alliteration, isn't nearly as important in the English translation as providing imagery of sudden offense. That's why I prefer something like: * 'you' yells * (more like "tue"). Rhyme or alliterat. is just icing on the cake.
1 hr
Personally I feel that rhyme outweighs alliteration, though in this case the assonance does work. Each to their own, however.
agree Rowena Fuller (X) : must admit this is genius at work!
3 hrs
Thanks Rowsie!
agree Wolf Draeger : Excellent reproduction of the original effect.
3 hrs
Thanks Wolf!
agree Yvonne Gallagher
6 hrs
Thanks gallagy2!
agree Sandra & Kenneth Grossman : Nice!
18 hrs
Thanks Sangro!
neutral S Kelly : Although the word "yous " can have connotations of misrepresented plural "you" -often used in slang
1 day 6 hrs
That would be why I placed my inverted commas carefully... It is after all going to be read, not spoken.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks so much! This is really clever!"
+1
21 mins
French term (edited): le \"tu\" tue

Avoid the blame game

Avoid the blame game, use "I" statements.

This doesn't sum it up as nicely as the French version, it's just something I put together based on some search results (see below).
Reference:

http://www.pickthebrain.com/blog/youre-playing-the-blame-game-and-everyone-knows-it-heres-5-easy-ways-to-stop-forever/

http://www.jacobspilman.com/YouStatements.ppt

Peer comment(s):
neutral Kate Collyer : This works perfectly for "prohiber l'accusation" rather than for "le 'tu' tue"
23 mins
True, I was trying to find an option that rhymes in order to conserve the punny feel.
agree Colin Rowe : I also like this a lot, but agree with Kate that it is better for the main part of the sentence rather than the bit in brackets.
30 mins
Thanks, Colin! Maybe Tatyana can combine them.
Something went wrong...
27 mins

you is a downer

"You's a downer" wouldn't work, would it?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Vikki Pendleton : I think 'downer' is a bit colloquial for the context
33 mins
neutral Rowena Fuller (X) : You puts u down? Ugh Text language but follows your point....
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
32 mins

finger pointing

suggestion:

...over that defensive wall that is built as soon as the word YOU escape

Even if neither person is in the wrong for anything, eliminating “finger pointing words” opens the door to begin to see how the other person really feels.
Reference:

http://alwaysopeningdoors.com/blog/finger-pointing-words/

Peer comment(s):
agree JH Trads
1 hr
Thank you Hugo !!!
Something went wrong...
58 mins

second person singular sends situations south

Hello,

Perhaps this might work. This is a little longer than the French, but the alliteration is at least there.

I hopet his helps.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Colin Rowe : If the target readership is British, I'm afraid this would need a translation of its own...
8 mins
I like this translation for a North American audience. I don't care for any other of the translations thusfar proposed. But I'm sure the bandwagon mentality on ProZ will soon jump aboard. Most in the UK could easily figure out the meaning. Have a nice day
neutral B D Finch : Like from foggy, rainy Manchester to the French or Italian Riviera? But, I do like the alliteration.
20 mins
Well, is that what you would like to do? Usually the sunshine calls us south. On a more serious note, alliteration is the key here for a good translation.
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+4
1 hr

I for life, You for strife

Lots of fun, this question :-) Couldn't resist adding another one:

I right, You fight (NOT a Chinese proverb, lol).

Must be dozens more, but so far none beats Kate's for the mnemonic effect.
Peer comment(s):
agree Rowena Fuller (X) : I like this one, (not the confuscious bit) but would have to be put in a strong context in order to make sense!
18 mins
Xie xie, rowsie!
agree Letredenoblesse
3 hrs
Thanks Agnes.
agree Yolanda Broad : Pretty cool phrasing.
10 hrs
Thanks Yolanda.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : I like this one also.
20 hrs
Thanks gallagy.
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

keep an "I" on the subject, use "you" and they'll object!

Just a play on words as "keep an eye on" i.e be careful and I've thrown in a mnemonic rhyme.
Translation can be fun!! (sometimes:))
Peer comment(s):
agree Wolf Draeger : Kudos for the creativity, though it might be more suitable for children than managers/executives ;-)
2 hrs
Thanks Wolf, sometimes there's not a big difference between some execs and kids
Something went wrong...
23 mins

There's no "I" in "TEAM"

Roughly similar.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2012-06-26 19:06:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@Colin/Rowsie. My slightly convoluted logic was that "team play" avoided the whole I/you issue by redirecting the focus. But I agree with you both - it doesn't some across that way!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Colin Rowe : Isn't this rather the opposite? i.e. avoiding the word "I", not "you".
24 mins
neutral Rowena Fuller (X) : Colin has a point, the idea to avoid is the use of 'you' (finger pointing)
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

Remember: "you" yells

Hello,

I think the alliteration takes precedence in the French, but if you could do the rhyme, too, that would be great (but not so important). Plus you need a little imagination here for "tue". I think "yell" works well in English here for "kill", and that carries over the French alliteration. I would advise against "bland" words for "tue" here.


I hope this helps.
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