Jun 19, 2006 13:26
17 yrs ago
French term
l’on pense en premier à ...
French to English
Marketing
Transport / Transportation / Shipping
smart cards; teleticketing
I've put this term in as a bit with which (!) I need help... but my underlying motive was to see whether anyone thinks there is a word missing in the original French (below). I think, but am not sure, that the word 'dans' might be missing before 'les villes moyennes'...
Sorry for missing accents - my fault - but the lack of punctuation in the text is from the original.
Le deploiement de la billettique a ete tres prononce en France si l'on compare au reste de l'Europe. Il y a une specificite francaise. D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique en particulier les villes moyennes et l'on pense en premier a l'image de mondernisation que celle-ci represente.
Now, assuming that 'dans' is missing, my translation so far is as follows:
There are other phenomena that explain the development of teleticketing, particularly in medium-sized towns and....
then I can't currently think of a neat way of tacking the rest of the sentence on in English....
something along the lines of 'and the most obvious reason is...'
or 'the modernization aspect' it offers springs to mind.... (this doesn't sound very good)....
any better suggestions out there?
Sorry for missing accents - my fault - but the lack of punctuation in the text is from the original.
Le deploiement de la billettique a ete tres prononce en France si l'on compare au reste de l'Europe. Il y a une specificite francaise. D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique en particulier les villes moyennes et l'on pense en premier a l'image de mondernisation que celle-ci represente.
Now, assuming that 'dans' is missing, my translation so far is as follows:
There are other phenomena that explain the development of teleticketing, particularly in medium-sized towns and....
then I can't currently think of a neat way of tacking the rest of the sentence on in English....
something along the lines of 'and the most obvious reason is...'
or 'the modernization aspect' it offers springs to mind.... (this doesn't sound very good)....
any better suggestions out there?
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Selected
expansion
replace "development" with "expansion", which is a very common meaning of "developpement", and you will find that, as you first said, medium-sized towns can then explain the *expansion* in/of teleticketing (systems).
Ideally perhaps, a comma should have been placed before "en particulier", but this is a less dramatic error to assume on the part of the author than an entire missing word :-)
I'm providing this answer because, while it doesn't answer the actual question, it does appear to be the root cause of your issue, after which I think everything falls into place... And no-one else has mentioned "expansion". The problem with "development", IMHO, especially when talking about a technology which is still, um, being developed (i.e. is not yet fully mature) is that a reader may well interpret the "still in the process of reaching technological maturity" meaning of development, and not expansion, or spread, of the technology, which is what is meant here.
Ideally perhaps, a comma should have been placed before "en particulier", but this is a less dramatic error to assume on the part of the author than an entire missing word :-)
I'm providing this answer because, while it doesn't answer the actual question, it does appear to be the root cause of your issue, after which I think everything falls into place... And no-one else has mentioned "expansion". The problem with "development", IMHO, especially when talking about a technology which is still, um, being developed (i.e. is not yet fully mature) is that a reader may well interpret the "still in the process of reaching technological maturity" meaning of development, and not expansion, or spread, of the technology, which is what is meant here.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
8 mins
No missing word in the French text.
*
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Graham macLachlan
: I'm sure the asker must be grateful for your help!
15 mins
|
Graham, maybe you should have been a comedian instead of a translator ...
|
|
neutral |
Richard Benham
: If you think there's nothing missing, perhaps you could explain the sense of the sentence as it stands.
5 hrs
|
disagree |
Adam Warren
: "dans" is definitely missing, although it could be implied in the mind of the draftsman
1 day 18 hrs
|
Merci, Adam, pour votre opinion ...
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13 mins
the first one being...
I would expect to see "dans" in there too.
My shot at it:
Other factors explain the development (emergence/growing popularity?) of teleticketing in/by medium-sized towns, the first one being the modern image it gives of that town.
My shot at it:
Other factors explain the development (emergence/growing popularity?) of teleticketing in/by medium-sized towns, the first one being the modern image it gives of that town.
+1
14 mins
...first among these/one of the main reasons is the forward-looking image it gives/creates
A suggestion. For modernisation, you might be better off thinking in terms of "forward looking" or even dynamic or progressive. The cities might be medium sized, but they're not behind the times.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Adam Warren
: 'and the most obvious reason is...' as given by the Asker
1 day 18 hrs
|
Thanks
|
+1
21 mins
one primarily considers
this uses the term 'primarily' in its truest sense.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Sorcha Diskin
4 mins
|
agree |
Assimina Vavoula
14 mins
|
neutral |
CMJ_Trans (X)
: primarily may be fine but "one considers"? sounds stilted methinks!
1 hr
|
disagree |
Richard Benham
: Unidiomatic English and not even the right sense.
5 hrs
|
+1
31 mins
my shot
D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique en particulier les villes moyennes et l'on pense en premier a l'image de mondernisation que celle-ci represente.
There are other reasons for the development of teleticketting, especially in the medium-sized towns, and the first of those has to be the modern image that teleticketting projects.
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Note added at 35 mins (2006-06-19 14:02:20 GMT)
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before the spellcheckers get on my case, I know it's "teleticketing"!
There are other reasons for the development of teleticketting, especially in the medium-sized towns, and the first of those has to be the modern image that teleticketting projects.
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Note added at 35 mins (2006-06-19 14:02:20 GMT)
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before the spellcheckers get on my case, I know it's "teleticketing"!
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Sandra Petch
: Quite similar to my answer... :-)
17 mins
|
indeed, similar, but hopefully not identical!
|
1 hr
Comment, NFG
An interesting one this!
Yes, I can see why one might hanker for a 'dans' that's missing there --- but at the same time, I read it first off quite naturally without it...
Something I've noticed over here in France is the difference in statistical distribution of town sizes compared with the UK --- there are indeed a lot of medium-sized towns and/or rather small cities, and I guess this sort of structure is ideal for teleticketing.
Small towns have too little public transport to justify it, whilst huge metropolises would find it a daunting task to implement.
But medium-sized towns, with a surprising degere of autonomy, and often acting like isolated 'islands' of population separated from each other by great swathes of countryside, would be a jolly good terrain to start rolling out this sort of system.
As you say, the lack of punctuation to steer the reading certainly doesn't help!
Yes, I can see why one might hanker for a 'dans' that's missing there --- but at the same time, I read it first off quite naturally without it...
Something I've noticed over here in France is the difference in statistical distribution of town sizes compared with the UK --- there are indeed a lot of medium-sized towns and/or rather small cities, and I guess this sort of structure is ideal for teleticketing.
Small towns have too little public transport to justify it, whilst huge metropolises would find it a daunting task to implement.
But medium-sized towns, with a surprising degere of autonomy, and often acting like isolated 'islands' of population separated from each other by great swathes of countryside, would be a jolly good terrain to start rolling out this sort of system.
As you say, the lack of punctuation to steer the reading certainly doesn't help!
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Richard Benham
: Your explanation is OK as far as it goes, but then why would the author go on to say that the image of modernity is the first thing one thinks of? [...]//Without "dans" it reads OK until you come to that last clause, [...]//See my note.
4 hrs
|
Thanks, RB! I was thinking more along the lines of our medium-sized towns espousing such modern concepts with open arms...
|
-1
4 hrs
primarily due to the
Other reasons explain the development of teleticketing, especially in small towns, primarily due to the image of modernisation it represents.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Richard Benham
: This doesn't make sense. Why "due to" after "other reasons"?
1 hr
|
7 hrs
initial thoughts of modernization generated by teleticketing
Hello,
There are other reasons why teleticketing has taken off in France: medium-sized cities (which helps its development along) and modernization as represented by teleticketing.
"Modernization" is NOT a false friend. As Richard said, there is an unnecessary witch-hunt for false friends on the part of French>English translators.
Don't translate literally here (one [you] thinks first of modernization as represented by teleticketing).
Simply say something on the lines of: in particular, medium-sized cities and initial thoughts of modernization brought about by teleticketing
There are other reasons why teleticketing has taken off in France: medium-sized cities (which helps its development along) and modernization as represented by teleticketing.
"Modernization" is NOT a false friend. As Richard said, there is an unnecessary witch-hunt for false friends on the part of French>English translators.
Don't translate literally here (one [you] thinks first of modernization as represented by teleticketing).
Simply say something on the lines of: in particular, medium-sized cities and initial thoughts of modernization brought about by teleticketing
6 hrs
most obviously [the image of modernisation it represents]
I think there is a "dans" missing. The sentence is grammatical as it stands, but doesn't make a lot of sense. If the medium-sized towns in France are presented as one of the reasons, and before the image of modernisation, why is the latter described as the first reason one thinks of?
I have used "most obviously" for "l’on pense en premier à" because I think an attempt to capture it more literally would be clumsy and unnecessary.
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Note added at 7 hrs (2006-06-19 21:16:24 GMT)
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CMJ_Trans has just made a very good and interesting point in relation to the preceding sentence. So here is my new attempt, taking this new consideration into account:
"There are other reasons for the expansion of teleticketing , in particular the [number of] medium-sized towns, where the primary motivation is the image of moderninity it represents."
This obvious owes something to the contributions of Charlie and CMJ_Trans. It is a bit literal in spots, and very free in others. But I think it works.
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Note added at 7 hrs (2006-06-19 21:24:59 GMT)
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Sorry, that's "modernity".
I have used "most obviously" for "l’on pense en premier à" because I think an attempt to capture it more literally would be clumsy and unnecessary.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2006-06-19 21:16:24 GMT)
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CMJ_Trans has just made a very good and interesting point in relation to the preceding sentence. So here is my new attempt, taking this new consideration into account:
"There are other reasons for the expansion of teleticketing , in particular the [number of] medium-sized towns, where the primary motivation is the image of moderninity it represents."
This obvious owes something to the contributions of Charlie and CMJ_Trans. It is a bit literal in spots, and very free in others. But I think it works.
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Note added at 7 hrs (2006-06-19 21:24:59 GMT)
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Sorry, that's "modernity".
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
CMJ_Trans (X)
: we can all say what we like but it is all conjecture. I cannot buy into your view because of the preceding sentence. That is where it starts getting a little odd - take a step back and tell me what you think
1 hr
|
Actually, you have a good point. The way to cope with it might be to take "l'on" as being the local transport authorities/agencies? I'm supposed to be doing something else, but I'll see if I can think of something.
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2 hrs
how about.... ?
there are other reasons that go to explain why ticketing systems have taken off so strongly in France, for example the number of mid-size towns in the country, and one of the first of these reasons to spring to mind is that it gives (them?) a very contemporary image (it is a great way to earn a contemporary image)
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Note added at 8 hrs (2006-06-19 22:22:04 GMT)
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Le deploiement de la billettique a ete tres prononce en France si l'on compare au reste de l'Europe. Il y a une specificite francaise. D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique en particulier les villes moyennes et l'on pense en premier a l'image de mondernisation que celle-ci represente.
"Tele-ticketing"(I hope this is the right term - we always translated "billettique" as "ticketing" but...) has developed very strongly in France by comparison with the rest of Europe. The situation in France is unusual. There are other reasons that explain why tele-ticketing has developed as it has, the first of which to come to mind being the image of modernity that it conveys
With apologies to Richard......
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Note added at 8 hrs (2006-06-19 22:24:52 GMT)
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sorry - I forgot the bit in the middle about the medium-sized towns/cities...
There are other reasons that explain why tele-ticketing has developed as it has, in particular the number of medium-sized towns, and the first of these to come to mind is the image of modernity that it conveys
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Note added at 8 hrs (2006-06-19 22:22:04 GMT)
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Le deploiement de la billettique a ete tres prononce en France si l'on compare au reste de l'Europe. Il y a une specificite francaise. D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique en particulier les villes moyennes et l'on pense en premier a l'image de mondernisation que celle-ci represente.
"Tele-ticketing"(I hope this is the right term - we always translated "billettique" as "ticketing" but...) has developed very strongly in France by comparison with the rest of Europe. The situation in France is unusual. There are other reasons that explain why tele-ticketing has developed as it has, the first of which to come to mind being the image of modernity that it conveys
With apologies to Richard......
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Note added at 8 hrs (2006-06-19 22:24:52 GMT)
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sorry - I forgot the bit in the middle about the medium-sized towns/cities...
There are other reasons that explain why tele-ticketing has developed as it has, in particular the number of medium-sized towns, and the first of these to come to mind is the image of modernity that it conveys
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Richard Benham
: This is a good illustration of why "dans" is probably missing. You have bent things to fit [...], but still it is awkward and logically odd.//See my note. You have at least partly convinced me.
4 hrs
|
to be truthful, I did it as an intelleectual exercise. The word "dans" may well be missing but it just might not....
|
+1
1 day 1 hr
see solution
The French sentence is very poorly constructed but if you take the phrase "en particulier [dans] les villes moyennes" and send it at the end of the sentence to read
D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique et l'on pense en premier a l'image de modernisation que celle-ci represente, en particulier dans les villes moyennes.
It become shapely and transparent and child's play for you turn it into an equallly clear and balanced English equivalent - your job.
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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2006-06-20 15:07:12 GMT)
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you can decide that either "dans" or "pour" is missing before "villes moyennes" but the solution in English is there anyway (in/for/with)
There are other reasons to account for the development teleticketing, first to come to mind is the image of modernity associated with it, in particular for/with/in medium-size cities.
D'autres raisons expliquent le developpement de la billettique et l'on pense en premier a l'image de modernisation que celle-ci represente, en particulier dans les villes moyennes.
It become shapely and transparent and child's play for you turn it into an equallly clear and balanced English equivalent - your job.
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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2006-06-20 15:07:12 GMT)
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you can decide that either "dans" or "pour" is missing before "villes moyennes" but the solution in English is there anyway (in/for/with)
There are other reasons to account for the development teleticketing, first to come to mind is the image of modernity associated with it, in particular for/with/in medium-size cities.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Richard Benham
: Interesting idea.
5 hrs
|
It's generally a good idea to translate French into French before turning it into English ;-)
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|
agree |
Najib Aloui
1 day 1 hr
|
1 day 2 hrs
we primarily think of
primarily: (Webster) in the first place.
As with respect to your question on <<dans>>, the crux of the statement lies on : <<l’image de modernization>> or “the picture of modernisation”.
Supposition a). <<les villes moyennes>> represents the physical aspect of French cities. If so, the writer forgot to insert <<dans>>. Note though that this article is based on a trend specific to france that has occasioned the development of la billetique (smart card machines?? Have to google later!). the physical aspect of the cities will in no way have fostered a trend and the development of an industry because (a). infrastructures in france that makes it a modern country are not specific to French cities. (b) “the picture of modernization this (les villes moyennes) represents” is not a factor that would make any entrepreneur invest in an industry or make French people catch on to the product, fostering its development.
Supposition b). <<les villes moyennes>> represents the human aspect of the city. If so, the writer needs not insert <<dans>> into the phrase . I had to translate <<les villes moyennes>> as , IMO: “the lifestyle of the middle class in the cities.” Why? (a) this has always being a driving force for growth and birth of trends that stimulates entrepreneurial and industrial development. (b) the middle class’s lifestyle, culturally, is and can be a specificity of the French that makes them to take to this product hence making this more pronounced (the use of the product) and hence the development or expansion of <<la billetique>>.
If I were in your shoes, I’d translate : <<l’image ….represente>> as “the status-giving symbol that this << les villes moyennes>> represents. That is what the writer was trying to say. When you realize that <<penser en premier à>> gives the idea of familiarity with this sort of trends arising from <<les villes moyennes>>.
As with respect to your question on <<dans>>, the crux of the statement lies on : <<l’image de modernization>> or “the picture of modernisation”.
Supposition a). <<les villes moyennes>> represents the physical aspect of French cities. If so, the writer forgot to insert <<dans>>. Note though that this article is based on a trend specific to france that has occasioned the development of la billetique (smart card machines?? Have to google later!). the physical aspect of the cities will in no way have fostered a trend and the development of an industry because (a). infrastructures in france that makes it a modern country are not specific to French cities. (b) “the picture of modernization this (les villes moyennes) represents” is not a factor that would make any entrepreneur invest in an industry or make French people catch on to the product, fostering its development.
Supposition b). <<les villes moyennes>> represents the human aspect of the city. If so, the writer needs not insert <<dans>> into the phrase . I had to translate <<les villes moyennes>> as , IMO: “the lifestyle of the middle class in the cities.” Why? (a) this has always being a driving force for growth and birth of trends that stimulates entrepreneurial and industrial development. (b) the middle class’s lifestyle, culturally, is and can be a specificity of the French that makes them to take to this product hence making this more pronounced (the use of the product) and hence the development or expansion of <<la billetique>>.
If I were in your shoes, I’d translate : <<l’image ….represente>> as “the status-giving symbol that this << les villes moyennes>> represents. That is what the writer was trying to say. When you realize that <<penser en premier à>> gives the idea of familiarity with this sort of trends arising from <<les villes moyennes>>.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
CMJ_Trans (X)
: this has got nothing to do with the middle classes whatsoever
4 hrs
|
Discussion