| Stron w wątku: < [1 2] | Demanding a certificate from a non-certified translator? Autor wątku: SandraV
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Phil Hand 
Chiny
Local time: 04:39
chiński > angielski
| Just send the certification! | Aug 16, 2012 |
1) The agency should have made clear to you that they needed certification in advance. They messed up there.
2) However, this can be easily fixed, so fix it. Just sign the statement and send it.
The UK version of certification is very simple, completely different to how it works in other countries. There is no requirement that the translator be certified. Only that they make a legally binding statement, saying that the translation is accurate.
Samuel, you'r... See more 1) The agency should have made clear to you that they needed certification in advance. They messed up there.
2) However, this can be easily fixed, so fix it. Just sign the statement and send it.
The UK version of certification is very simple, completely different to how it works in other countries. There is no requirement that the translator be certified. Only that they make a legally binding statement, saying that the translation is accurate.
Samuel, you're right that Sandra is subject to Mexican law, but that doesn't mean she can't certify. She can't certify for Mexican legal purposes; but she's not being asked to do so. She's just being asked to sign a statement - which is legal. It so happens that signing this statement counts as valid certification under UK law. It doesn't count as certification under Mexican law (and Sandra must not claim that it does). But there's nothing in Mexican law to say she can't do it.
(Think of it like gay marriage. A gay couple can go from the US to Canada and get married. The US government won't recognise their marriage, but that doesn't stop them doing it.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
Wielka Brytania
Local time: 21:39
francuski > angielski
+ ...
| Probably their fault, but I'd just send what they're asking for | Aug 16, 2012 |
Sandra de la Vega wrote:
Thank you Samuel, you are right and I can tell them that, but the real problem is that they are refusing to pay me for the work I already did until I send them the document by regular post. This certify thing was not stated in the original PO they sent me.
Hi Sandra,
I agree that in an ideal world, they should have asked you for the self-certification beforehand. However, it can genuinely happen that a client realises 'after the event' that they need the certification: e.g. they've already asked for the translation and then their lawyer gets back to them with 'oh, by the way...'. It's happened to me a couple of times that a client that is e.g. a legal/insurance firm asks for this as an 'aside' when sorting out final invoicing.
That said, as far as I can recall, I've never actually had to send such a certificate by post. As I *recall*, scanning and attaching to an e-mail has been acceptable, even for translations used as court evidence. So that requirement may have been invented as a payment delay tactic.
But... I think pragmatically you may as well just do as they ask. The registered service from Mexico-UK will cost you the princely sum of 30 pesos or so and it'll usually get there in 1-2 weeks. (DHL will get it there in 3 days for about 500 pesos, but I've actually generally been pleasantly surprised with the boring old correos-- as I say, with a bit of luck it could be there in a week.)
| | | | Allison Wright (X)
Portugalia
Local time: 21:39
but as far as I can tell the end client (hereinafter referred to as "the client") contracted the agency to "do" the translation.
It is the agency, and not the translator, who has the attest to the truth and correctness of of the translation, not the person whom the agency subcontracted, in this case, the translator.
There is no direct relationship between the client and the translator in this case. The agency has no legal right to enforce one either.
As t... See more but as far as I can tell the end client (hereinafter referred to as "the client") contracted the agency to "do" the translation.
It is the agency, and not the translator, who has the attest to the truth and correctness of of the translation, not the person whom the agency subcontracted, in this case, the translator.
There is no direct relationship between the client and the translator in this case. The agency has no legal right to enforce one either.
As the translator, you are only obliged to the agency for whatever was in the PO. Legally the agency cannot withhold payment from you.
And before the agency starts making other excuses to avoid paying the translators, remember that the agency has already decided that the translation is good enough to be "certified".
Stand firm. Never sign anything you are not sure about! It would be best if the document the agency is attempting to fabricate is printed on toilet paper.
End of my rant, and two cents' worth.
[Edited at 2012-08-16 07:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | neilmac
Hiszpania
Local time: 22:39
hiszpański > angielski
+ ...
| Traducción jurada | Aug 16, 2012 |
Sandra de la Vega wrote:
Hi Sheila, thank you for your reply. They claim that the end client is requiring it.
[Si son hispano-hablantes, lo más probable es que "certificada" se trata de una "traducción jurada"... ]
If they are Spanish speakers, the clients are likely referring to a "sworn translation". AFAIK, in the English speaking world there is no real equivalent, and unless you have obtained the (Spanish) qualification of "traductor jurado/a" the usual thing to do would be as Samuel suggests: issue a statement affirming that the translation is a faithful reproduction of the original content.
Some clients will be happy if you have a "certificate" issued by any translator's organisation, like ATA or even the more commercial operations (even if not worth the paper they're printed on), like this:
http://translationcertification.org/Certified?gclid=CPfBwJ3b67ECFYUmtAod-GgAeA
[Edited at 2012-08-16 08:22 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Hiszpania
Local time: 21:39
Członek ProZ.com
od 2007
angielski
+ ...
| They want this on a separate piece of paper? | Aug 16, 2012 |
It just occurred to me that you said in your original post that they want this on a separate piece of paper (or at least, that was implied). In that case, how do you know what they are going to attach it to? It could be attached to some complete rubbish Google translation.
When I had to have sworn copies of birth and marriage certificates for France, I wondered where on earth the stamp would go: the translator actually put all the text in two-thirds of a page and then used the botto... See more It just occurred to me that you said in your original post that they want this on a separate piece of paper (or at least, that was implied). In that case, how do you know what they are going to attach it to? It could be attached to some complete rubbish Google translation.
When I had to have sworn copies of birth and marriage certificates for France, I wondered where on earth the stamp would go: the translator actually put all the text in two-thirds of a page and then used the bottom for the stamp, signature etc.
I agree with others that it might be "easiest" just to comply, but I would really advise you to be careful about this. It could be too easy to be taken advantage of. Which is more important - the fee for the job or peace of mind? As I said before, the agency has no right to withhold the fee anyway. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Holandia
Local time: 22:39
Członek ProZ.com
od 2006
angielski > afrikaans
+ ...
| @Phil, on legal analogies | Aug 16, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Samuel, you're right that Sandra is subject to Mexican law, but that doesn't mean she can't certify. She can't certify for Mexican legal purposes; but she's not being asked to do so. She's just being asked to sign a statement - which is legal.
No, I see it differently. Signing a statement that makes a declaration that is a false declaration in the location where you sign it is not legal, even if the declaration is meant to be used another location where the declaration would not be false.
Under Mexican law (if I got it right, of course), it is illegal to sign a statement "I certify X" in Mexico if you're not legally competent to certify X in Mexico. The fact that the statement will be used outside of Mexico does not change the illegal act in Mexico into a legal act in Mexico.
Think of it like gay marriage. A gay couple can go from the US to Canada and get married. The US government won't recognise their marriage, but that doesn't stop them doing it.
I don't think the analogy fits the situation. Here is the situation as I see it (using the gay marriage analogy): If a wedding officer performed a wedding ceremony in the US in contravention of US law (by enacting a wedding for a couple who is not qualified to get married), would that wedding officer be absolved in the US of his crime if he contended that the couple is from a country where his act would not have been illegal?
[Edited at 2012-08-16 09:54 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Holandia
Local time: 22:39
Członek ProZ.com
od 2006
angielski > afrikaans
+ ...
| @Shelagh, re: link between stamp and document | Aug 16, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
It just occurred to me that you said in your original post that they want this on a separate piece of paper (or at least, that was implied). In that case, how do you know what they are going to attach it to?
Your declaration relates to "my translation", and it mentions the name of the document too. Even if they attach your declaration to another person's translation of the same document, it does not make your declaration false. If they do that, then they are the ones committing fraud, not you.
They probably only want the declaration for an audit trail and not for legal proceedings.
When I had to have sworn copies of birth and marriage certificates for France, I wondered where on earth the stamp would go: the translator actually put all the text in two-thirds of a page and then used the bottom for the stamp, signature etc.
I believe sworn translators in South Africa do a similar thing -- the stamp they use usually contains the declaration itself, with empty spaces for the date and signature, and the translator places the stamp anywhere on the translated page where it would not obscure the text (which is usually near the top or bottom of the page, but not necessarily).
| | | | | The agency should send you another PO | Aug 16, 2012 |
and request a new quote that will cover your expenses for issuing this statement + postage (it was supposed to be a part of your quote from the very beginning, but they failed to inform you of these details, which is their problem, not yours). Make sure they pay for this extra service before you agree to send the abovementioned document. I used to do it on a regular basis but later removed this service from the list as going to the post office took me too much time and distracted from actual wor... See more and request a new quote that will cover your expenses for issuing this statement + postage (it was supposed to be a part of your quote from the very beginning, but they failed to inform you of these details, which is their problem, not yours). Make sure they pay for this extra service before you agree to send the abovementioned document. I used to do it on a regular basis but later removed this service from the list as going to the post office took me too much time and distracted from actual work (but that's just me: a great number of translators offer this service). ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
It just occurred to me that you said in your original post that they want this on a separate piece of paper (or at least, that was implied). In that case, how do you know what they are going to attach it to? Your declaration relates to "my translation", and it mentions the name of the document too. Even if they attach your declaration to another person's translation of the same document, it does not make your declaration false. If they do that, then they are the ones committing fraud, not you.
Just be clear: "my translation of XXX document of XX.XX.2012"
By the way, I happened to talk to clients who wanted a sworn translator, not because the document had to be sworn but because they really thought that only sworn translators had the right to translate professionally, could dress such a statement and make invoices, and that all the others were unprofessional.
To others, 'sworn' meant something like 'more quality'.
The same goes for not being VAT-registered, which for some people means no 'registration at all', 'vanishing', 'cannot make a living out of it', 'doesn't pay taxes', etc.
[Edited at 2012-08-16 11:34 GMT]
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
Kanada
Local time: 14:39
niderlandzki > angielski
+ ...
| Change the wording | Aug 16, 2012 |
The problem lies in the phrase "I hereby certify". You cannot in all honesty say that if you are not a certified (sworn) translator and you have no stamp. In your case I would ask the agency to change those words to "I declare". There is a huge difference between those two terms.
| | | | OlafK
Wielka Brytania
Local time: 21:39
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
| In the UK you can self-certify | Aug 22, 2012 |
In the UK a translator can self-certify a translation with a text like the one the British agency requires in this case. It's just a confirmation that you did the translation to your best abilty etc. I don't see what the problem is. I'd charge for it, though.
The status of "sworn translator" doesn't exist in the UK.
| | | | B D Finch
Francja
Local time: 22:39
francuski > angielski
+ ...
| Try to resolve this fast | Aug 22, 2012 |
The agency certainly is wrong to withold payment pending provision of something that was not in the original job order. However, except for their error in using the word "certify" instead of "declare", what they are asking for is perfectly in order in the UK. It is usual to require such a declaration if the translation is to be used in court. I used to regularly, in the course of my work (not as a translator), produce copies of documents for court and simply wrote on them that I declared that th... See more The agency certainly is wrong to withold payment pending provision of something that was not in the original job order. However, except for their error in using the word "certify" instead of "declare", what they are asking for is perfectly in order in the UK. It is usual to require such a declaration if the translation is to be used in court. I used to regularly, in the course of my work (not as a translator), produce copies of documents for court and simply wrote on them that I declared that they were true copies and signed and dated them. This would not be adequate for France, but the courts in England and Wales happily accept that, just as they accept that a letter was posted on the strength of a photocopy and without requiring it to have been sent by registered post with proof of delivery.
I suggest that you quote the agency a cost for your time (including standing in the post office queue) and registered postage with proof of delivery for providing this extra service. If they agree to that and provide a written assurance that they will pay in full immediately upon receipt then post it off a.s.a.p. If, on the other hand, they don't agree it gets more complicated and you will have to decide whether it is worth entering into a formal dispute. ▲ Collapse
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