| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Why are free translation tests tolerated by translators? Thread poster: Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
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| Free samples? Sure, no problem whatsoever | Aug 1, 2016 |
A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. Go to a farmers' market, and you will often be offered samples even without asking for them, just because you approached the stand. The farmer will not give you a basketful of cherries or a whole watermelon as a sample, but what he gives you will be enough to appreciate the taste. Same here - I give the client an opportunity to appreciate my quality, and if my offer does not bring me an immediate job, it may bring one in the future. Even if it doe... See more A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. Go to a farmers' market, and you will often be offered samples even without asking for them, just because you approached the stand. The farmer will not give you a basketful of cherries or a whole watermelon as a sample, but what he gives you will be enough to appreciate the taste. Same here - I give the client an opportunity to appreciate my quality, and if my offer does not bring me an immediate job, it may bring one in the future. Even if it does not, I bear no grudge. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | About free cherries | Aug 2, 2016 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. ...
In our industry, it has become a trick/method to get "a lot" for free from willing inexperienced colleagues without ever paying them for it in any form. I hold we should speak out against all the ridiculous bidding practices going on instead of sugarcoating them
Free tests are no marketing tool in my eyes. They are blatant examples of giving in to any demand. People are going to most likely take advantage of you. And to me, still doing it it smells of desperation. If you want some cherries for free, look at some samples posted on my websites or ask me for one sentence. If that's not enough, move along.
[Edited at 2016-08-02 04:46 GMT]
| | | | Maija Cirule 
Latvia
Local time: 06:16
German to English
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Anton Konashenok wrote:
A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. ... In our industry, it has become a trick/method to get "a lot" for free from willing inexperienced colleagues without ever paying them for it in any form. I hold we should speak out against all the ridiculous bidding practices going on instead of sugarcoating them Free tests are no marketing tool in my eyes. They are blatant examples of giving in to any demand. People are going to most likely take advantage of you. And to me, still doing it it smells of desperation. If you want some cherries for free, look at some samples posted on my websites or ask me for one sentence. If that's not enough, move along. [Edited at 2016-08-02 04:46 GMT]
taking on these "test translations" speaks volumes about the translator's gullibility or sheer desperation. As beggars can scarcely be chosers, the translators are treated accordingly.
| | | | Yolande Hivart
Austria
Local time: 05:16
Member (2016)
German to French
| No problem with them when i have time | Aug 2, 2016 |
I have no problem with translation tests and i do not take it personally when I fail (for instance for no more feedback that being too close to the source text and a style issue that would have had to be the job of a proofreader; for other test i might not have been pleased with the source text and butchered the translation to make it better in my opinion). I even passed credential tests that probably the tester that found my translation too inline would not have succeed. My account might be new... See more I have no problem with translation tests and i do not take it personally when I fail (for instance for no more feedback that being too close to the source text and a style issue that would have had to be the job of a proofreader; for other test i might not have been pleased with the source text and butchered the translation to make it better in my opinion). I even passed credential tests that probably the tester that found my translation too inline would not have succeed. My account might be new but i had another one on proz ten years ago and I do not think the situation improved. Some tests brought me great regular clients but it was then a specific test for a special task. If my writing does not fit then it is OK I do not have to please anyone.
I have clients that have been remaining with me because I was special. This way of being special might not fit in a test. I am me and I have been long enough not needing to be a database ghost. ▲ Collapse
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| An attempt to look from the other side and other rumblings | Aug 2, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Anton Konashenok wrote:
A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. ... In our industry, it has become a trick/method to get "a lot" for free from willing inexperienced colleagues without ever paying them for it in any form. [Edited at 2016-08-02 04:46 GMT]
I would liken them to those individuals in a drugstore who seem to be coming only to spray on themselves the content of all perfume samples in the store... or those "customers" in supermarkets feeding themselves on the unwashed grapes on the stales... disgusting. But you'll have these outcasts in any industry and it doesn't mean samples aren't a valid marketing tool. Nobody says you have to use them.
And just for the record, I hate doing the free tests as much as anybody here.
BUT what I actually wanted to say: I was told by an agency that they're required by some ISO to have a translation sample on file for any translator they're working with. I don't think they were lying on this and after my dismay they came up with a solution - they sent me a sample of only approx. 100 words to translate for each language pair (2 of them).
I don't think which ISO this is, maybe somebody will be able to check it. But I think it puts things in perspective. However the size of the sample is apparently fully up to the agency (or it's a minimum of 100 words).
On the opposite spectrum of this issue, I got recently a translation test comprising of something like 10 pages in a doc, with all kinds of language tasks, including several short texts to translate. It was difficult to estimate the volume of the translation sample alone but the whole test would surely take several hours to do. It was the agency which also does the most popular CAT tool... so a well established one... with totally abhorrent rates, the bottom of the market rates for my languages, so this test was just beyond impertinence. It was a client specific test for an IT company. I know Google also has a huge test, with multiple tasks, since I've done one - for another agency, the one that likes to brag in "BIG WORDS" about themselves. Needles to say, I'd never heard from them again if I didn't urge them.... they claimed not to have received my test and many other rubbish... An bunch of incompetent and arrogant morons shielding each other, if you asked me... of course, I don't work for them.
But I think there's a pattern of especially the big IT companies thinking they're entitled to an unlimited amount of freebies. Apparently they think they're so cool that everybody's just dying to work for them, whatever it takes. I know it also from the game industry, they treat everybody as an absolute sheete. Too bad some translation agency facilitate this (being treated the same in the process!).
But let's also not pretend there're no meager translators among us (even with years of experience, samples, memberships, diplomas and what have you). So the need to check us is, sadly, fully justified.
Anybody questioning this, I'd recommend you working as a proofreader for some time, it will rob you of any illusions.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 05:16
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| That's right. | Aug 2, 2016 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. Go to a farmers' market, and you will often be offered samples even without asking for them, just because you approached the stand. The farmer will not give you a basketful of cherries or a whole watermelon as a sample, but what he gives you will be enough to appreciate the taste. Same here - I give the client an opportunity to appreciate my quality, and if my offer does not bring me an immediate job, it may bring one in the future. Even if it does not, I bear no grudge.
My cherries and apples are my translations samples, they may taste them as much as they want. However, I am not going to take the time to produce a brand new, custom-made watermelon just for them to try for free.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 04:16
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Some agencies are just total timewasters | Aug 2, 2016 |
Katarzyna Slowikova wrote:
I was told by an agency that they're required by some ISO to have a translation sample on file for any translator they're working with. I don't think they were lying on this.
That's either a misunderstanding of what ISO is all about, or a deliberate misuse of it. A sample can come from you, e.g. from your ProZ.com profile; it certainly doesn't have to be done especially for them. Anyway, all they have to do is maintain due diligence when selecting their suppliers. There are a million and one ways to do that. (My husband used to be an ISO auditor.)
bunch of incompetent and arrogant morons shielding each other, if you asked me... of course, I don't work for them.
I don't work for any of those over-big ones either. I did get as far as filling in one application form not long ago. I should have known better! I got to the stage of having to do a pre-test, before doing a test and that was before I'd been able to state my rates - if indeed I was ever going to have the opportunity to do that. They sent me no fewer than five reminders at the end of last month, saying that they'd sadly be unable to send me enormous volumes of work unless I did as I was told. So sad, poor little me, jobless .
| | | | | That outsourcer | Aug 2, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: I did get as far as filling in one application form not long ago. I should have known better! I got to the stage of having to do a pre-test, before doing a test and that was before I'd been able to state my rates - if indeed I was ever going to have the opportunity to do that. They sent me no fewer than five reminders at the end of last month, saying that they'd sadly be unable to send me enormous volumes of work unless I did as I was told. So sad, poor little me, jobless .
That sounds conspicuously like the same one I've been hearing from. The five reminders had this in the subject: "=?utf-8?Q??=".
The only human correspondence I've ever received from them was:
"Hi,
I represent V. We have a number of translation and proofreading jobs available for this language pair. If you are interested, please register at ..................com.
Kind regards,"
That was in October last year.
Their site mentions several layers of tests. One would need one or two days to go through it all, following which I presume they'll offer a generous rate of $0.05 per word or something like that.
Their overall BB score is 4.4; 4.1 the last 12 months. Many BB comments criticise low rates and late payment.
I have several alarm bells ringing and have no intention of spending time on their tests, or even working for them, given their declining score since I last looked at their BB.
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Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:16
German to English
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| Agree with Fiona, Laura, Sheila | Aug 2, 2016 |
Laura Kingdon wrote: Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
I don't have a problem with them; that said, I'm not asked to do them very often, as long as they don't exceed 300 words, and the agency seems serious. Given the plethora of translators out there claiming credentials and skills they don't have, a test is an effective way to evaluate a translators skills for a particular job. Sample translations on one's own website, as well as here on Proz, are easy to fake. Granted I could pass a test translation along to a colleague if I wanted to fake that too, but it would be more difficult to do on a long-term basis.
This is how I feel as well. I can't blame agencies for wanting concrete proof of my skills since credentials are so easy to fake, and I've had some very lucrative partnerships after taking tests. But the test has to be quite short and it has to fit into my schedule. If they want me to make it a priority, they can pay for it. There also has to be an actual job involved, not just, "We're bidding on this high-volume project..." or "We're expanding our database..." Finally, rates have to be agreed upon before anything else gets done. All this means that while I still do tests in theory, I haven't actually done one in well over a year now.
I agree with Fiona and Laura -- and Sheila's example of landscape gardeners etc. I consider it a valid investment of my time if a client appears serious. I have a few conditions: the text has to be small (max. 300 words) and the client is not allowed to insist on a deadline. They can have it for free when I have time to do it for free.
I have earned a heck of a lot of money off the back of free translation tests, and I have gained quite a few decent clients that way. In fact I'm currently working on a 60,000+ word job with an extra 3500 words following that job, all from a translation test.
I think Sheila's example is right on the money. Many skilled professionals offer their time for free on the basis that what they offer will be considered valuable enough for clients to invest in later. Lawyers will often offer a 30-minute consultation for free (actually I know some who offer the first hour for free). When I was organising an international move, I had five different specialist moving companies come over to view the contents of my home and write up quotations for me. Each visit took about 30 minutes, and then they went away and spent more unpaid time writing up the quotes. I only chose one in the end, but the contract was worth over £2000 so it was worth their effort to give me some of their time for free at the start.
| | | | | Free work for no good cause? | Aug 2, 2016 |
I did my fair share of free tests when just starting as a freelancer, but nowadays I am willing to accept a small trial order at min. rate and that's about it. If the agency insists, I politely explain that I may do some free work for a non-commercial organization, a charity or a friend in need but certainly not a for a well-established business
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 04:16
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| That's the one :( | Aug 3, 2016 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
That sounds conspicuously like the same one I've been hearing from. The five reminders had this in the subject: "=?utf-8?Q??=".
Except that the subject of each of mine is: (No subject) That in itself is enough to set every alarm bell ringing.
I've just had a look back at my records and found that a few months ago they did send me a job - even though I haven't taken any test. It was for German (a language I don't speak) to English, banking/finance, an urgent PPT file of 1568 words. EUR 0.07 per word is what they were prepared to pay me for this urgent job (first contact at 15:30, for delivery 11:00 next day).
I think we'll get by without them, Thomas .
| | | | Edith Kelly
Switzerland
Local time: 05:16
Member
German to English
+ ...
| Reviewing test translations | Aug 3, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
That sounds conspicuously like the same one I've been hearing from. The five reminders had this in the subject: "=?utf-8?Q??=". Except that the subject of each of mine is: (No subject) That in itself is enough to set every alarm bell ringing. I've just had a look back at my records and found that a few months ago they did send me a job - even though I haven't taken any test. It was for German (a language I don't speak) to English, banking/finance, an urgent PPT file of 1568 words. EUR 0.07 per word is what they were prepared to pay me for this urgent job (first contact at 15:30, for delivery 11:00 next day). I think we'll get by without them, Thomas .
Having reviewed unpaid test translations on many occasions, let me tell you, I've never come across anything that did not need changing, sometimes just a few words. But "translators" submit machine translations, google translate, it's scandalous to see the nerve people have. Some are quite good, admittedly. Though I myself would never do an unpaid test, I can see why agencies ask for them: there are just too many chancers around who should not be paid a penny for submitting what they submit. Ok, I do not know their credentials as I am not given names.
[Edited at 2016-08-03 16:17 GMT]
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| You get what you pay for | Aug 3, 2016 |
EdithK wrote:
Having reviewed unpaid test translations on many occasions, let me tell you, I've never come across anything that did not need changing, sometimes just a few words. But "translators" submit machine translations, google translate, it's scandalous to see the nerve people have. Some are quite good, admittedly. Though I myself would never do an unpaid test, I can see why agencies ask for them: there are just too many chancers around who should not be paid a penny for submitting what they submit. Ok, I do not know their credentials as I am not given names.
[Edited at 2016-08-03 16:17 GMT]
Maybe those translators who submit machine translations and Google Translate submit them because they don't get paid for those "free" test translations.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 05:16
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| And reviewers? | Aug 3, 2016 |
EdithK wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
That sounds conspicuously like the same one I've been hearing from. The five reminders had this in the subject: "=?utf-8?Q??=". Except that the subject of each of mine is: (No subject) That in itself is enough to set every alarm bell ringing. I've just had a look back at my records and found that a few months ago they did send me a job - even though I haven't taken any test. It was for German (a language I don't speak) to English, banking/finance, an urgent PPT file of 1568 words. EUR 0.07 per word is what they were prepared to pay me for this urgent job (first contact at 15:30, for delivery 11:00 next day). I think we'll get by without them, Thomas . Having reviewed unpaid test translations on many occasions, let me tell you, I've never come across anything that did not need changing, sometimes just a few words. But "translators" submit machine translations, google translate, it's scandalous to see the nerve people have. Some are quite good, admittedly. Though I myself would never do an unpaid test, I can see why agencies ask for them: there are just too many chancers around who should not be paid a penny for submitting what they submit. Ok, I do not know their credentials as I am not given names. [Edited at 2016-08-03 16:17 GMT]
In freelance world, I have seen a higher number of bad/poor reviews than bad translations.
In other words, it is reviewers who do their job worse than translators do theirs, at least this trend is very noticeable.
And I can talk about this because I worked both as a reviewer and a second reviewer (ie. reviewer of a reviewed work/changes). Going around adding changes for changes' sake with no sense of style, flow, context, how to separate important from unimportant, doesn't make you a reviewer. Any text and any word can be changed just for the sake of it, but for it to be called a revision it needs to be done in a systematic and structural/constructive way.
[Edited at 2016-08-03 17:17 GMT]
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 23:16
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| Not a fair comparison | Aug 3, 2016 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
A free sample is a centuries-old marketing tool. Go to a farmers' market, and you will often be offered samples even without asking for them, just because you approached the stand. The farmer will not give you a basketful of cherries or a whole watermelon as a sample, but what he gives you will be enough to appreciate the taste. Same here - I give the client an opportunity to appreciate my quality, and if my offer does not bring me an immediate job, it may bring one in the future. Even if it does not, I bear no grudge.
But you don't ask the farmer to spend an hour in his field harvesting free samples, do you? He takes something already on the stand that costs him virtually no time. What if every potential customer asked for an hour of the farmers time?
How has it come about in our profession that some agencies expect you to spend time on a sample specially created for them and they reject your portfolio of work? In other creative professions, say photography, you put together a portfolio to present to prospective clients.
[Edited at 2016-08-03 19:03 GMT]
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