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a pu se convaincre lui-même

English translation: which the buyer could have discovered (for) himself

11:48 Mar 8, 2023
French to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Business/Commerce (general) / Packaging
French term or phrase: a pu se convaincre lui-même
Le vendeur n'est pas tenu des vices apparents et dont l'acheteur a pu se convaincre lui-même. (Article 1642 du Code civil)

This is found in quite a lot of contracts and conditions. I don't get the implication here.Anyone have a good translation for the "a pu se convaincre lui-même" part?

Thanks!
Philip Taylor
Local time: 23:44
English translation:which the buyer could have discovered (for) himself
Explanation:
"According to art. 1642 CC the seller is not liable for apparent defects which the buyer could have discovered himself. By accepting the delivered thing (explicitly or tacitly), the buyer ecognizes not only that the delivered thing is in conformity with the sold thing but also that it is free of noticeable defects."
https://www.google.fr/books/edition/Sales/sU_H2LMeXpkC?hl=fr...


"As under the common law , the seller is not liable for the apparent defects which the buyer could have discovered for himself;"
https://www.google.fr/books/edition/Foreign_Graphic_Arts_Ind...
Selected response from:

Charles R.
Local time: 02:44
Grading comment
A lot to think about here, and I'm still not 100% sure, but I'm going with the conditional, reading "a pu" in this sense of "had the ability to" = "could have". But many thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +9which the buyer could have discovered (for) himself
Charles R.
3 +3that the buyer was able to verify
liz askew
4 +2could him/her/themself(ves) recognize
Bourth
3Apparent defects ascertained by the buyer
Marie-Pascale Wersinger
4 -3could satisfy himself
Zorra Renard
Summary of reference entries provided
see
liz askew

Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


37 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +9
which the buyer could have discovered (for) himself


Explanation:
"According to art. 1642 CC the seller is not liable for apparent defects which the buyer could have discovered himself. By accepting the delivered thing (explicitly or tacitly), the buyer ecognizes not only that the delivered thing is in conformity with the sold thing but also that it is free of noticeable defects."
https://www.google.fr/books/edition/Sales/sU_H2LMeXpkC?hl=fr...


"As under the common law , the seller is not liable for the apparent defects which the buyer could have discovered for himself;"
https://www.google.fr/books/edition/Foreign_Graphic_Arts_Ind...

Charles R.
Local time: 02:44
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
A lot to think about here, and I'm still not 100% sure, but I'm going with the conditional, reading "a pu" in this sense of "had the ability to" = "could have". But many thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Zorra Renard: Le TS ne dit pas 'aurait pu'
10 mins
  -> Changez a pu par aurait pu et vous verrez que le sens est le même.
neutral  writeaway: I don't agree with the English verb tense (agree with Zorra) or the use of the word discovered /yes agree. But the correct verb tense would be helpful. /The English verb tense used is confusing/not clear. But that's today's Kudoz
59 mins
  -> It's all about the meaning of the verb pouvoir. See discussion. As for discover, there are quite a few references.
agree  Anastasia Kalantzi
1 hr
  -> Thank you!
neutral  Tony M: The use of 'could' is unwelcome here and distorts the meaning; it is an issue of tense; really 'has been able to'
2 hrs
  -> It's all about the meaning of the verb pouvoir. See discussion.
neutral  Andrew Bramhall: Agree with Zorra and Writeaway ; maybe ' found out about for him/herself' instead of discovered;
2 hrs
agree  Adrian MM.: had been able to discover /UK Sale of Goods: ascertain personally / https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_advanced-business-law-an...
7 hrs
  -> Thank you!
agree  James A. Walsh: Of course "themself" is always available as as a gender-neutral option...
10 hrs
  -> Thanks!
agree  Steve Robbie: Much clearer than "was able to discover", "could discover", both of which wrongly suggest that the person did in fact identify the defects.
22 hrs
  -> Thank you!
agree  Daryo: as per the translation given by Legifrance - in this case there's nothing wrong with the "official" translation (rien à redire)
2 days 2 hrs
  -> Thank you!
agree  Eliza Hall: And "could have" is the correct tense. Whether the buyer discovered the defects or not, the fact that he COULD HAVE, because the defects were apparent, is the point.
2 days 8 hrs
  -> Ah thank you, that's exactly my point.
agree  AllegroTrans
5 days
agree  Yvonne Gallagher
8 days
agree  SafeTex
13 days
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47 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -3
could satisfy himself


Explanation:
The seller is not liable for apparent defects of which the buyer could satisfy himself (of their existence/nature/scope/extent)

Zorra Renard
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:44
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Steve Robbie: The problem with this is that "could" is unintelligible here. You need to change the tense to produce meaningful English.
7 mins
  -> Yep thanks
neutral  writeaway: I think different wording is needed....
44 mins
  -> Yep thanks, you could be right;
neutral  AllegroTrans: wrong verb tense and "satisfy" doesn't work for discovering hidden defects
48 mins
  -> Don't agree. You're ignoring the preposition you need to put with it.
neutral  Tony M: Agree with all the comments above
2 hrs
  -> Fair enough
disagree  Adrian MM.: what a stupid double 'I can't get no satisfaction' entendre from the Zorra 'Oliver Toogood / Andrew Bramhall' Renaud stable!
6 hrs
disagree  Yvonne Gallagher: "satisfy" is quite a double entendre
1 day 2 hrs
  -> Come on...
neutral  FPC: Satisfy is perfectly fine, but I also would reword it better
1 day 23 hrs
  -> Yep thanks
disagree  Daryo: As AllegroTrans said: "satisfy" doesn't work for discovering hidden defects / nor for spotting visible ones // Here is a case where "literal" doesn't work, not at all.
2 days 2 hrs
  -> And as a native Serbian speaker, you'd know, wouldn't you?
neutral  Andrew Bramhall: Zorra is right, nothing at all wrong , suspect, spurious logic with "satisfying oneself AOUT something" Ignore the lunatic fringe, Zorra! Honi soit qui mal y pense!
2 days 7 hrs
  -> Thanks
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59 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
that the buyer was able to verify


Explanation:
,,

liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 70

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: You are leaving out the lui-même aspect.
36 mins
agree  Tony M: 'the buyer themself was / has been able to verify' would do the trick here; though I don't believe in any case this is a true reflexive: see definition from Bourth below.
2 hrs
agree  Andrew Bramhall: Yes, able to verify for themselves;
2 hrs
agree  ph-b (X): Emploi pronom. à sens passif (TLFi), which "verify" covers + "to prove that something exists or is true, or to make certain that something is correct." (Cambridge)
16 hrs
agree  FPC
1 day 23 hrs
disagree  Daryo: Makes no sense: you "verify" something you expect to be true - do you buy a car expecting it to have lots of defects?
2 days 2 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
could him/her/themself(ves) recognize


Explanation:
There's literal and literal, and then there's convaincre and se convaincre, which a/c to Lexis is:
"se convaincre v pr (1730) se convaincre de ou que, être amené à accepter comme vrai, à reconnaître que : Il me fallait bien me convaincre que ma présence aggravait son état (Gide).", the latter possibly translating as "I had to recognize that my presence worsened his situation".

Bourth
France
Local time: 00:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: or 'was able to' instead of could
14 mins
  -> Frankly I don't see the problem. A visible defect is a visible defect, before, during and after the sale.
agree  Tony M: Again, I agree with W/A that it's better to avoid 'could' here, which might lead to misinterpretation if read as a conditional.
35 mins
  -> Frankly I don't see the problem. A visible defect is a visible defect, before, during and after the sale.
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2 days 3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Apparent defects ascertained by the buyer


Explanation:
Another possible translation

Marie-Pascale Wersinger
Local time: 00:44
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in EnglishEnglish
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Reference comments


56 mins peer agreement (net): +6
Reference: see

Reference information:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/462...


dont l'acheteur a pu se convaincre lui-même
Traduction en anglais : were apparent (at the time of sale) to the purchaser

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Note added at 58 minutes (2023-03-08 12:47:26 GMT)
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also

Supply of Goods in France: Overview - Practical Law
Thomson Reuters
https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com › ...
1 Oct 2022 — The seller is not liable for apparent defects ****that the buyer was able to verify**** (Article 1642, Civil Code). Breach of this warranty entitles ..

liz askew
United Kingdom
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 70

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Tony M
2 hrs
agree  Andrew Bramhall
2 hrs
agree  philgoddard: No need to discuss this again.
2 hrs
agree  James A. Walsh: Ditto to Phil's comment
9 hrs
agree  Michele Fauble
11 hrs
agree  ph-b (X): Cf. également R&C (verify = « confirmer »), n'en déplaise à Daryo, qui une fois de plus préfère ses élucubrations aux sources officielles.
17 hrs
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