je n'ai de permission à

English translation: I don't need [anybody else's] permission

11:57 Sep 5, 2022
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / 19th century letter
French term or phrase: je n'ai de permission à
Monsieur

Je remplis aussi un devoir en ma qualité de Français, en vous declarant que ne reconnoissant en Égypte d'autre autorité que celle du Pasha, je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre, encore moins au Consul d'angleterre qui n'a certainement point, d'ailleurs, les ridicules prétensions que vous lui supposez.

Si je parviens à me procurer des ouvriers plus experts que ceux qu'on m'a envoyés du Caire et auxquels je puisse confier cette entre prise delicate ne doutez nullement, Monsieur, que vouz n'aurez un jour la plaisir de voir dans La Musée de France quelques uns des beaux bas reliefs du tombeau d'Osirei, ce sera au reste le seul moyen de les sauver d'une destruction prochaine et en mettant ce projet en execution J'agirai en ami véritable de l'antiquité puisque j'enleverai ces monuments pour les conserver et non pas pour les vendre.

J'ai l'honneur etc.etc.

F.Champollion le jeune

à Thebes le 14 juin 1829

I'm struggling to decide whether this has a negative sense (and lacks the 'pas' in a similar vein to 'pouvoir') or if it's an expletive 'ne'...can anyone shed some light on this please?

TIA!
Verity Roat
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:23
English translation:I don't need [anybody else's] permission
Explanation:
The actual translation will depend on whether you go with 19C or 20-21C English and what style you're lending the writer (whose writing skills are nothing to, er, write home about).

The context being the French and English vying for influence over Egypt in the 19th century. Spoiler alert: the British win.

From the CNRTL:
Avoir à + inf. impliquant une idée, plus ou moins nette, d'obligation. Être contraint de.

From Le Petit Robert 2011:
AVOIR À (et l'inf.): être dans l'obligation de. > 1. devoir.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-09-05 14:59:52 GMT)
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A bit embarrassed to slam the wordsmithery of the great Champollion...maybe he was having a bad day.
Selected response from:

Wolf Draeger
South Africa
Local time: 04:23
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +10I don't need [anybody else's] permission
Wolf Draeger
4 +5I don't have to ask for anyone else's permission
Daryo
4 +3I require no other permission
AllegroTrans
3it's not as if I have to seek anyone's say-so
Adrian MM.
3I'm under no obligation to wait on any individual's permission
Barbara Cochran, MFA


Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre
I don't have to ask for anyone else's permission


Explanation:
... ne reconnoissant en Égypte d'autre autorité que celle du Pasha, je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre ...
=>
as I recognise only the Pasha's authority (/ the Pasha as being the only person in charge), I can't see why anyone else's opinion would matter in any way ...




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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-09-05 14:00:01 GMT)
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ah yes, obvious point of method: you have to look at the whole of

"je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre"

a forceful way of saying:

"[as I recognise only the Pasha as the ruler of / as having authority over this territory I'm in (i.e. Egypt)] I couldn't care less about whatever anyone else has to say - that would be irrelevant / doesn't count for zilch."


Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:23
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M
35 mins
  -> Thanks!

agree  Jennifer White
45 mins
  -> Thanks!

agree  Samuël Buysschaert
1 hr
  -> Merci!

agree  Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
  -> Thanks!

agree  Nicole Acher
8 hrs
  -> Thanks!

neutral  Barbara Cochran, MFA: Doesn't sound very "forceful" to me. In fact, it sounds rather bland, like basic, literal translations often do./"Colorful", in either its pejorative or positive sense, is an inaccurate desc.of my trans. "Assertiveness", not "forcefulness", is at play.
20 hrs
  -> Of course, there are plenty of more "colourful" / "punchy" variants ... But, given that the ST is in fact quite polite, I stayed on the same register. / Do you have some a priori phobia of "literal" translations? (they are not always wrong)
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +10
I don't need [anybody else's] permission


Explanation:
The actual translation will depend on whether you go with 19C or 20-21C English and what style you're lending the writer (whose writing skills are nothing to, er, write home about).

The context being the French and English vying for influence over Egypt in the 19th century. Spoiler alert: the British win.

From the CNRTL:
Avoir à + inf. impliquant une idée, plus ou moins nette, d'obligation. Être contraint de.

From Le Petit Robert 2011:
AVOIR À (et l'inf.): être dans l'obligation de. > 1. devoir.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2022-09-05 14:59:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A bit embarrassed to slam the wordsmithery of the great Champollion...maybe he was having a bad day.

Example sentence(s):
  • It is also my duty as a Frenchman to inform you that, recognizing no authority in Egypt other than that of the pasha, I require the permission of none other, let alone of the British Consul-General [...]
  • It is also my duty as a Frenchman to inform you that, recognizing the authority in Egypt of none but the pasha, I need ask no one else for permission, let alone the British Consul-General [...]

    Reference: http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/avoir
    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_Pasha
Wolf Draeger
South Africa
Local time: 04:23
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 32

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  ph-b (X): "need s.o.'s permission" implies you have to ask s.o. for it, so no need to spell it out. Nice and concise.
12 mins
  -> Ta.

agree  Tony M
23 mins
  -> Ta.

agree  Samuël Buysschaert
1 hr
  -> Ta.

agree  Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
  -> Ta.

agree  James A. Walsh
2 hrs
  -> Ta.

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
2 hrs
  -> Ta.

agree  FPC
5 hrs
  -> Ta.

agree  Lara Barnett
7 hrs
  -> Ta.

agree  Nicole Acher
8 hrs
  -> Ta.

agree  Anastasia Kalantzi
9 hrs
  -> Ta.
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
it's not as if I have to seek anyone's say-so


Explanation:
Past translation: 'I have to ask for not other permission' is slightly ambiguous for another person's or a differenmt form of permission.

No, say-so is not colloquial, as exemplified by the web ref.

I believe this version avoids the 'dull-thud' trap of the same word order-

Example sentence(s):
  • We are narrowing in on a way to understand a view we will call ethical realism. Ethical realism is the view that there are ethical truths and that they are made true by facts independent of anyone’s say so, will, or sentiment.

    Reference: http://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Philosophy/An_Introd...
Adrian MM.
Austria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Emmanuella: Nous sommes au 19e siècle. Not as if ? Il s'agit d'une lettre officielle
43 mins

neutral  AllegroTrans: The text is direct and formal and from the C19th, with which in other matters, you seem to delight. However, this suggestion is too colloquial, too modern and far from the correct register
1 day 6 hrs

neutral  Zorra Renard: Adrian has vever gotten over the collapse and decline of the Romanov, Hapsburg, and Hohenzollern dynasties!
14 days
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
I'm under no obligation to wait on any individual's permission


Explanation:
...or any entity's permission...

Not very literal, but I think it reflects the assertive nature of the letter's verbiage.

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Note added at 21 hrs (2022-09-06 09:54:08 GMT)
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And here's an additional response to SafeTex's "neutral": https://happentoyourcareer.com/podcast-archive/how-waiting-o...

Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
Local time: 22:23
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Daryo: If you don't include the "autre" bit the meaning gets pretty deformed: the ST doesn't say "no one" but "ONLY ONE" (i.e. the Pasha) has to be asked for permission //The ST is more important than the way the question has been formulated.
46 mins
  -> I chose to translate "autre" as "any individual's". If you were a credentialed literary translator like I am, you would certainly understand my interpretation a lot better, and my lack of interest in literalness, most of the time anyway.

neutral  SafeTex: I coulnd't find anything by Googling that suggests that "wait on (someone's ) permission" is an English construction.
20 hrs
  -> The phrase was the first entry I found when I googled it just now: https://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/i-didnt-get-anywhere-in-my-...

neutral  AllegroTrans: Yes, it reflects the assertiveness, but strays too far from the ST. Also "I'm" is too colloquial
1 day 10 hrs
  -> Not at all, in the last two instances.
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1 day 12 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
I require no other permission


Explanation:
I think this reflects the register of the ST and avoids "do not" and "don't"
In modern English we would regard "don't need" as fairly forceful and direct but 19th century English differed in this regard

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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:08:22 GMT)
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the first priest to be executed in Elizabeth I's reign
https://www.tudorsociety.com › blessed-thomas-woodh...
19 Jun 2017 — My lord, for this my poor advice I require no other thing of your Lordship but that ye will not molest by any means this bearer, ...

'Die Nibelungensage' ('The Nibelung Saga'), retold by Alfred ...
https://tonysreadinglist.wordpress.com › 2018/11/26
26 Nov 2018 — That is my wage, I require no other thanks. *** (my translation). The thing is, Brunhilde and Siegfried have a history (even if he can't ...

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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:09:53 GMT)
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Scripture & Creed - Lecture 3 - Newman Reader
https://www.newmanreader.org › works › arguments › l...
I require no other. For our own Church it is enough, as the Homilies show. It is enough that Scripture has been overruled to contain the whole Christian ...


Sir Watkin and the Italian Castrato
https://blog.library.wales › sir-watkin-and-the-italian-ca...
18 Aug 2014 — ... that in performing the part of Orpheus, I require no other bribe, or reward, than the pleasure of shewing you a ready obedience.

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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:11:15 GMT)
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Gerileon of England. The second part of his most excellent ...
https://quod.lib.umich.edu › eebo
But I repute the déed to bee of so slender valew, in regard of your deserts, as for all my labour bestowed, I require no other thing of yee: but that ye ...

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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:21:45 GMT)
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My Kingdom For A Wolf - Chapter 9 - Lithgaeril
https://archiveofourown.org › works › chapters
2 May 2022 — I require no other permission.” Aulë watched him with shrewd eyes for a few moments longer before his glare broke into a grudging smile, ...

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:23
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Daryo
9 hrs
  -> thanks

agree  Lucy Teasdale
1 day 9 hrs
  -> thanks

agree  Emmanuella
1 day 11 hrs
  -> thanks
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