spinnefremd

English translation: arch strangers

10:58 Mar 7, 2012

German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature

German term or phrase: spinnefremd

http://www.textlog.de/tucholsky-berlin.html

"Die Berliner sind einander spinnefremd. Wenn sie sich nicht irgendwo vorgestellt sind, knurren sie sich in der Straße und in den Bahnen an, denn sie haben miteinander nicht viel Gemeinsames. Sie wollen voneinander nichts wissen, und jeder lebt ganz für sich."

From a Kurt Tucholsky satirical text on Berliners from the Berliner Tageblatt in 1919.

I think this term is a play on the word "spinnefeind" but cannot come up with such wordplay in English and so far have only explained it as 'being complete and utter strangers to one another'.

Many thanks for any help !

jen_stringer32

English translation:arch strangers

Explanation:
Considering the possibility of arch enemies for spinnefeind, then this might be a possibiility. It does sound unusual, but I think it could evoke a similar response to the German, which is also striking because it is not a common term.

Selected response from:

Nicola Wood
Austria
Local time: 09:28

Grading comment

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

3 +4

arch strangers

Nicola Wood

3 +1

wary of each other

Lancashireman

3 +1

avoid one another like poison

Helen Shiner

Berliners are Berlinerphobes

transatgees

ant- agonistic

thefastshow

hate each other's guts/xenophobic

Ramey Rieger (X)

bitter strangers

casper (X)

are totally alien to each other

Wendy Streitparth

Berliners hate Berliners they don't know

Sue Shepherd

estranged from one another

Michael Martin, MA

far be it for the Berliners to stand on niceties

Jonathan MacKerron

Summary of reference entries provided

found this:

Jonathan MacKerron

Discussion entries: 11

Ramey Rieger (X)

Germany

@BrigitteHilgner

16:36 Mar 7, 2012

OUCH! I guess I'm just too polite! Although "touch me and you're dead" has been known to cross my lips. But I rather like spiders.

Clive Phillips

United Kingdom

Combining Nicola's and Andrew's excellent answers

16:11 Mar 7, 2012

To each other, Berliners are wary (or leery/chary/distrustful) arch strangers.
A distinctive memory of my four years in Berlin in the '70s was of daunting vicious elderly ladies at the bus stop jabbing you in the ribs with their umbrellas as they fought to get on the bus first.

BrigitteHilgner

Austria

@ Ramey

13:31 Mar 7, 2012

I like the idea of the ten foot pole (as distance between me and any spider) but judging by the following suggestions that's quite harmless. Don't approach me or I'll eat you seems to be the underlying message. ;-)
http://www.sprichwoerter-redewendungen.de/redewendungen/sich...
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/spinnefeind
http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewWrongentry.php?idThread=106628...

Ramey Rieger (X)

Germany

@ BrigitteHilgner

12:58 Mar 7, 2012

loathe and avoid each other? "Can't come within smelling distance of each other" "wouldn't touch each other with a ten foot pole"
How's that?

Helen Shiner

United Kingdom

@Andrew

12:25 Mar 7, 2012

Perhaps it depends on how mean the spider is. Seriously, though, what additional meaning does Tucholsky bring to this expression by adding 'spinne'? Einander fremd sein wollen would be more in line with what you are suggesting.

Lancashireman

United Kingdom

spinnefremd v spinnefeindlich

12:21 Mar 7, 2012

Spinnefremd: "Sie wollen voneinander nichts wissen" (see context). Not quite as strong as 'spinnefeindlich', IMO.

BrigitteHilgner

Austria

loathe and avoid each other

12:14 Mar 7, 2012

Can that be run into one word in English? I'd love to see it.

Jonathan MacKerron

there is a sense of alieanation among Berliners

12:04 Mar 7, 2012

"Berliners simply don't like each other" / "there is nothing touchy-feely about the Berliners" (modern context)
"the Berlins don't even attempt to be civil with each other" /"there is no love lost between Berliners"

Di Anna (X)

Germany

don't want to know each other

11:38 Mar 7, 2012

I'm not native in English but in German. I agree that its about being sth like "hostile strangers". People in Berlin don't know each other and they don't want to know each other.

Jonathan MacKerron

could care less about each other

11:25 Mar 7, 2012

"can't stand the sight of each other", particularly if a pun for "spinnefeind"

jen_stringer32

ASKER

11:22 Mar 7, 2012

How do I reclassify this post as PRO ? I'm new to Proz !

Answers

41 mins confidence:

hate each other's guts/xenophobic

Explanation:
I love Tucholsky!

the first suggestion is the idiomatic, but I prefer xenophobic because of the urban, claustrophobic inferrence - reminds me of NYC

Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Local time: 09:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 77

52 mins confidence:

bitter strangers

Explanation:
And for spinnefeind I would suggest bitter enemies.

casper (X)

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

einander spinnefremd wary of each other

Explanation:
Based on the context, the discussion and the reference provided by JM.

Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 159

1 hr confidence:

are totally alien to each other

Explanation:
-

Wendy Streitparth
Germany
Local time: 09:28
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

avoid one another like poison

Explanation:
Since spinnefeind can mean 'to hate something like poison', I wonder if this would work?

Berliners avoid one another like poison.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-03-07 12:05:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Berliners keep a hostile distance from one another.

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 139

1 hr confidence:

Berliners are Berlinerphobes

Explanation:
as in "arachnophobes"

transatgees
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:28
Native speaker of: English

1 hr confidence:

Berliners hate Berliners they don't know

Explanation:
The word seems to imply that they are strangers and want to keep it that way out of hostility.

Sue Shepherd
Local time: 09:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English,

German

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +4

arch strangers

Nicola Wood
Austria
Local time: 09:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

agree

Lancashireman: 'arch stranger' as opposed to 'arch enemy' - excellent choice for this context

1 hr

-> Thank you, Andrew.

agree

BrigitteHilgner: I like this very much - I think it get's Tucho's idea across.

3 hrs

-> Thank you, Brigitte.

neutral

Helen Shiner: The problem with 'arch' for me is that is sounds as if they have one eyebrow raised in a playful manner, though I appreciate what you've tried to do. It just is not strong enough for me because of this competing meaning.

4 hrs

-> Well, as I said, it is just a possibility for retaining some of the word play element and trying not to end up translating spinnefeind instead of Tucholsky's term.

agree

Horst Huber (X): Certainly a good way of conveying Tucholksy's pun.

4 hrs

-> Thank you, Horst

agree

KKMoe (X)

1 day 5 hrs

-> Thank you!

3 hrs confidence:

estranged from one another

Explanation:
Suggests a sense of alienation without implying deliberate enmity. As such, slightly less emotive than the source term.

Reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=WZr8ZavTsGMC&pg=PA100&lpg=P...

Michael Martin, MA
United States
Local time: 03:28
Works in field
Native speaker of:

German,

English
PRO pts in category: 43

3 hrs confidence:

ant- agonistic

Explanation:
ant- agonistic :))))
Like a red flag to a bull, two rumblefish in a bowl...

I was trying to find animal idioms which come close to spinnefremd since obviously there is no equivalent of spinnefeind in English (at least not to my knowledge) which would immediately ring a bell if slightly changed.

This is a word invention by Tucholsky and combines two qualities concerning spiders.
They tend to and care about their own net (they don't share a net) in which they are "entangled" in and they are loners . They may have their nets next to each other but remain for themselves (fremd). One may catch flies , another may catch wasps busy with themselves. On the other hand when they meet sometimes there can be deadly fights (the play on spinnefeind).

I think ant-agonistic works well here and made me really laugh ...

We all know the meaning of antagonistic which seemes appropriate here but on top of that it immediately evokes an image of two fighting ants (when they are from different colonies) . Those two will always be alien to each other only caring for their own (colony)business though being the same animal.
Up to you but this one's nice me thinks :)))

thefastshow
Germany
Local time: 09:28
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 4

5 hrs confidence:

far be it for the Berliners to stand on niceties

Explanation:
yet another

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 67

Reference comments

33 mins peer agreement (net): +3

Reference: found this:

Reference information:
Neben dem gelegentlichen spinnefeind gibt es noch das ganz seltene spinnefremd, eine Erfindung Tucholskys, wie mir scheint („Berlin! Berlin!“). Einen weiteren Beleg dafür aus der Literaturbeilage der ZEIT findet man nur noch in Googles Cache:
»Jenny Erpenbecks Figuren sind vom Unglück begünstigt, doch am Ende leider tot. Erpenbecks Geschichten erzählen von Subjekten, die gegeneinander spinnefremd und verschlossen sind in ihrem jeweiligen unglücklichen Bewusstsein. Die sich im Belauschen, im misstrauischen Abhorchen bis in den Schlaf verlieren, sich nichts trauen, nie kühn den Ausbruch wagen. „Daß ich immer nur sehen darf und dieses Sehen mich schon ganz vergiftet hat“, heißt es einmal sehr schön. Leider geht es mit den Texten ebenso, die ein sentenziöser Blick regiert, sodass sie immer nur symbolisieren müssen und dieses Symbolisieren sie schon ganz vergiftet hat.«
(Bemerkenswert: Der besprochene Text „Der Balladenrest vom Fest“ ist offenbar in herkömmlicher Rechtschreibung, die Rezension reformiert.)

Noch etwas zum reformschrieblichen Spinnefeind: Die TAZ hat sogar einen Beleg für eine substantivische Verwendung hinbekommen – allerdings schon vor der Umstellung, wie die s-Schreibung zeigt (Quelle: wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de):
»Der Fifa-Boß droht seinem Spinnefeind Pelé sogar mit dem Ausschluß Brasiliens von der WM 1998. (Quelle: TAZ 1997)«
Laut dem Leipziger Wortschatzlexikon hat es die WELT fertiggebracht, im Jahr 2000 über die Wiederkleinschreibung von spinnefeind zu berichten, es im nächsten Jahr dann aber doch groß zu schreiben (siehe hier).

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 67

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English translation: arch strangers

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