Mar 5, 2013 20:42
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term

erschwerte Haft

German to English Law/Patents Law (general) Criminal Law
Personen [...] können mit zehnjähriger erschwerter Haft belegt werden [...].



From a human rights report on conscientious objection.

Aggravated imprisonment? Can't find a thing.

Discussion

I came up with aggravated imprisonment myself and didn't like it.
Lancashireman Mar 7, 2013:
subject to? Sorry, this just makes it worse.
But they can give them a custodial sentence subject to aggravated prison conditions
Lancashireman Mar 7, 2013:
Haft = conditions?! No court in any land sentences people to 'conditions'. Look at the wording of your source text: Personen [...] können mit zehnjähriger erschwerter Haft belegt werden [...].
I have yet to read all this but I am being Held up. I like aggravated prison conditions the best.
Lancashireman Mar 7, 2013:
abstruse possibly … but the veil of obscurity is gradually being lifted. Anyway, Phil, this Q will probably be closed on the basis of the early voting. Despite the distinctly non-native sound of the phrase, the asker will no doubt be reassured by the instances of “aggravated imprisonment” (sic) on the Web found by Dr Timm et al.
philgoddard Mar 7, 2013:
Andrew et al If you don't mind my saying so, this debate is getting very obscure... :-)
Haluk Erkan Mar 7, 2013:
copy+paste from WIKI (...) A main difference in prison terms was made between “light imprisonment” and “heavy imprisonment” (even though current law does not make such a difference any more). Accordingly, penal courts for light imprisonment (asliye ceza) or criminal courts for heavy imprisonment (ağır ceza) are responsible to hear these cases. (...)
http://ob.nubati.net/wiki/Background_to_the_Legal_System#The...
Lancashireman Mar 7, 2013:
Which I believe translates as: "ağır hapis cezası" (= schwere Haft) and "ağırlaştırılmış müebbet hapis cezası" (= erschwerte lebenslange Haft) are technically correct, whereas "ağırlaştırılmış hapis cezası" (erschwerte Haft minus lebenslange) is not.
Haluk Erkan Mar 7, 2013:
Turkish 4 beginners :) "ağır hapis cezası" ve "ağırlaştırılmış müebbet hapis cezası" olur, kanuni mevzuata uygun doğru kullanım bu şekildedir. Ancak "ağırlaştırılmış hapis cezası" yanlış kullanım şeklidir...
Lancashireman Mar 7, 2013:
Update from the parallel Q http://www.nedirnedemek.com/ağır-hapis-cezası-nedir-ağır-hap...
Suggested translation for ağır hapis cezası: penal servitude
Dagdelen Mar 6, 2013:
it's better Because "ağırlaştırılmış hapis" can be confused with "ağırlaştırılmış müebbet hapis (=>"aggravated life imprisonment").
Lancashireman Mar 6, 2013:
ağır hapis cezası What do you think of this as an alternative, Rasim? It actually googles slightly better. According to an online dictionary, 'ağır' is an adjective meaning: heavy/hard/arduous/severe/oppressive/grievous/harsh.
Lancashireman Mar 6, 2013:
Thanks for the grammatical insight, Rasim Albert will probably want to use a past participle then, i.e. a verb ending in ed (or possibly –en). As he said right at the start, however, “an offence can be aggravated, and conditions and circs can be aggravated, assault can be aggravated, it's always kinda active whilst a custodial sentence as such is kinda passive.”
Dagdelen Mar 6, 2013:
Hi Andrew & interested people Well, I try. Turkish is an agglutinating language and therefore you can create new words very easy with affix and the others.
"ağırlaştırılmış" is surely the past participle of the verb "ağırlaştırmak" and it means making something more difficult or even "weighted". Just like the German term "erschwert". But here it means "tightened" or "aggravated", but not "weighted".

Actually they should have used the word "zorlaştırılmış" (=made more difficult). But the people have chosen the other one.

By the way if the word were "ağırlaştırılmış müebbet hapis ("aggravated life imprisonment" ~ "erschwerte lebenslange Haftstrafe) then it would mean that the prisoner can never come outside, no remission of punishment, no pardon, no amnesty, no mercy, nothing (=lifetime sentence).

Cheers,
Rasim
Lancashireman Mar 6, 2013:
Hi Rasim Could you just explain the grammatical nature of ağırlaştırılmış. From the way you have translated the word, it does seem to be the past participle of a verb. But it also sounds a bit like a comparative adjective. (NB I was not suggesting 'weighted pp' as a translation!)
Dagdelen Mar 6, 2013:
not "weighted" here "ağırlaştırılmış"= "tightened" or "aggravated". ağırlaştırılmış means literally "made more difficult"
Lancashireman Mar 6, 2013:
ağırlaştırılmış hapis cezası literally "weighted prison penalty"
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_turkish/law_general/5127...
Dagdelen Mar 6, 2013:
in Turkish legislation Sorry, for the involving from outside.
:)
In Turkey, people say tightened (ağırlaştırılmış) imprisonment, the term " ağırlaştırılmış" means quietly the same like "erschwert"; i.e. it should be good enough, if you would do a word-precise translation of German-Term "erschwert". (imho)
I hope it helps.
Lancashireman Mar 5, 2013:
Turkish adjective It looks like we are all chasing a translation from Turkish. The German is ‘erschwert’ (past participle), but that does not necessarily mean that the English also has to end in ‘ ed’. The answers in so far (including my own) merely indicate that various Turkish-English translators have already encountered the problem and come up with their own individual solutions. Criteria for choosing between them? Which sounds most like authentic English and does not distort the meaning.
Jonathan MacKerron Mar 5, 2013:
perhaps no strictly legal connotation at all but rather as Bina suggests, very difficult conditions from the prisoner's point of view?
In my opinion an offence can be aggravated, and conditions and circs can be aggravated, assault can be aggravated, it's always kinda active whilst a custodial sentence as such is kinda passive.
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 5, 2013:
I believe this could be imprisonment without parole, or imprisonment vs. probation
It's about Turkish legislation.
Nationality?
Michael Martin, MA Mar 5, 2013:
..can be sentenced to aggravated imprisonment, no?
That's not in the text not in the text, mate.
philgoddard Mar 5, 2013:
Hard labor?

Proposed translations

+3
5 mins
Selected

aggravated prison conditions

my guess for starters...

or "detention conditions"

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Note added at 13 mins (2013-03-05 20:55:25 GMT)
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"hard imprisonment" might fit in this context
Note from asker:
I quite like your initial answer, that sounds the most familiar.
Peer comment(s):

agree Johanna Timm, PhD : "aggravated imprisonment" http://tiny.cc/vzrhtw ; Turkey: http://www.mit.gov.tr/eng/kanun.html
29 mins
agree Kim Metzger : Aggravated imprisonment http://tinyurl.com/ahqa7cl
47 mins
neutral Lancashireman : Persons can be sentenced to ten years of "aggravated prison conditions"?
4 hrs
agree Dagdelen : also good
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+4
15 mins

imprisonment with restriction of privileges

this is what occurred to me, more context & nationality would be useful
Note from asker:
conscientious objectors in turkey
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : In some ways I think this is better than "aggravated" which, while it does mean "make more serious", is usually associated with the offense rather than the punishment.
18 mins
agree Lancashireman : This is what it means.
2 hrs
agree Frosty : Indeed – all privileges that may be 'routinely' granted to a prisoner are restricted/withdrawn, the sentence to be served under the hardest/strictest of conditions.
5 hrs
agree Ramey Rieger (X) : including no possibility of parole.
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
-3
17 mins

Difficult prison term

In context, this is about a ten-year long difficult prison term
Peer comment(s):

disagree Kim Metzger : Hardly the term of art.
24 mins
disagree AllegroTrans : I would think any prison term would be difficult in Turkey; your phrase doesn't appear to state anything
12 hrs
disagree Carmen Lawrence : 'difficult' is rather subjective, no?
1 day 16 hrs
Something went wrong...
+5
50 mins

aggravated imprisonment


58. In its decision of 16 January 2010, BVerfG, 2 BvR 2299/09, the Federal Constitutional Court considered an extradition case where the offender faced “aggravated life imprisonment until death” (erschwerte lebenslängliche Freiheitsstrafe bis zum Tod) in Turkey. The German government had sought assurances that he would be considered for release and had received the reply that the President of Turkey had the power to remit sentences on grounds of chronic illness, disability, or old age. The court refused to allow extradition, finding that this power of release offered only a vague hope of release and was thus insufficient. Notwithstanding the need to respect foreign legal orders, if someone had no practical prospect of release such a sentence would be cruel and degrading (grausam und erniedrigend) and would infringe the requirements of human dignity provided for in Article 1.
Peer comment(s):

agree Johanna Timm, PhD : cp my agree to Jonathan's suggestion above.
1 hr
agree Kim Metzger
1 hr
agree AllegroTrans : according to the Wiki entry it means 30 years in Turkey
11 hrs
agree Dagdelen
15 hrs
agree Harald Moelzer (medical-translator)
1 day 13 hrs
neutral Lancashireman : This is a translation of a Turkish term via German. This is why it sounds translated. EN aggravated: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aggravated Why would the Turkish legislators wish their penal system to be associated with such a descriptor?
1 day 16 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

confinement (or detention) under aggravating circumstances

a crime is aggravated, e.g. aggravated felony,
circumstances are aggravating ( or mitigating) as the case may be.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Charles Milton Ling : I would choose incarceration.
1 day 17 mins
disagree Carmen Lawrence : Imprisonment is indeed aggravating, I would suspect.
1 day 15 hrs
neutral Lancashireman : Looks like Carmen is having doubts about the suitability of 'aggravated'.
1 day 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
2 hrs

heavy imprisonment

Only because I found the reference indicated below.
Peer comment(s):

agree Lancashireman : This is one occasion on which we really need Salih’s help to translate the Turkish word ‘ağır’: tough, heavy, rigorous, severe?
15 mins
agree Haluk Erkan : We use "ağır hapis cezası" (=heavy imprisonment) and not "ağırlaştırlımış hapis cezası".
1 day 17 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

solitary confinement and no possibility of parole

The two main components of this type of punishment in Turkey seem to be a) the prisoner is held in solitary confinement and b) there is no possibiloity to apply for parole and parole must not be granted. The other conditions are less dominant in the specific character of this punishment. I would propose to use a descriptive phrase that encapsules the main characteristics (and those that make this type of punishment so objectionable in Germany).
Something went wrong...
+1
5 hrs

tightened imprisonment

... may be sentenced to ten years of tightened imprisonment
or:
... could face ten years of toughened imprisonment conditions

etc..

Example from link below:

"In initial reactions, the Israeli prison administration tightened imprisonment conditions."
Peer comment(s):

agree Dagdelen
10 hrs
Thanks, Rasim.
Something went wrong...
22 mins

rigorous imprisonment

Multiple web references in connection with Turkey.

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Note added at 31 mins (2013-03-05 21:14:18 GMT)
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Turkey
ANTI-TERROR LAW
Article 5. Penalties of imprisonment and fines imposed according to the respective laws for those committing crimes as described in Articles 3 and 4 above shall be increased by one half. In doing so the penalties may exceed the maximum penalty for that or any other crime. However, in the case of rigorous imprisonment the penalty may not exceed 36 years’, in case of ordinary imprisonment 25 years’, and in case of light imprisonment 10 years’ imprisonment.
https://www.unodc.org/tldb/showDocument.do?lng=en&documentUi...
Sounds slightly weird in EN, but this appears to be the 'official' translation.


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Note added at 40 mins (2013-03-05 21:22:31 GMT)
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Dr Timm's reference: Egypt

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-03-05 22:09:05 GMT)
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Kim Metzger's reference: Egypt
Phil Goddard's reference: Wikipedia

Agree with your comment in Discussion Box. 'Aggravated' sounds arbitrary and pernicious - hardly the sort of adjective that a government or legal system would wish to be associated with.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2013-03-06 11:27:43 GMT)
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Hi Albert
The source is the United Nations. The language isn't brilliant, but neither are any of the sources for 'aggravated' or 'heavy'. Incidentally, that isn't a typo in the headline but a transcription error from scanning or the like. Anyway, I think you would be better off using one of the expanded, descriptive versions.
AJS

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Note added at 14 hrs (2013-03-06 11:41:23 GMT)
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It might be interesting to post this as a German-Turkish question, to get the back-translation, and then to repost it as Turkish to English. I think a lot of contributors here are under the impression that the German translation (i.e. using a past participle) is authoritative.
UN? EU? Both equally likely to produce authentic or unauthentic EN.

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Note added at 23 hrs (2013-03-06 20:33:16 GMT)
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Hi Albert
It appears that the Turkish speakers recognise both ‘ağırlaştırılmış hapis cezası’ and ‘ağır hapis cezası’ as legitimate wordings of the court sentence. Interestingly, when you google “10 yıl ağır hapis cezası” (whole phrase), you get 193,000 hits compared to just nine for “10 yıl ağırlaştırılmış hapis cezası”. Consequently, this would suggest that you need a translation of the adjective form ağır (schwer) rather than the past participle (-ed) / comparative (-er) form ağırlaştırılmış. Which of course brings hard, heavy, rigorous, arduous etc back into contention.
NB The above research is provided willingly and with no expectation of KudoZ success. I realise that you will probably wish to single out for reward the earliest reply (essentially agreeing with what you had already rejected) that has attracted four endorsements under the ‘most helpful’ criterion.
AJS


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Note added at 1 day16 hrs (2013-03-07 13:21:37 GMT)
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Amended/alternative proposal:
penal servitude
http://www.nedirnedemek.com/ağır-hapis-cezası-nedir-ağır-hap...

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Note added at 5 days (2013-03-11 11:51:30 GMT)
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Hi Albert
I am receiving automatically generated e-mails from the system asking me to close the parallel question: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_turkish/law_general/5127...
It would clearly be presumptuous of me to do so without seeing what the 'correct' answer is here (ağır/schwer/heavy or ağırlaştırılmış/erschwert/heavified).
Will you be closing this question yourself - using the 'most helpful criterion, however you choose to interpret that - or leaving it to the robot at the end of the fortnight?
Regards
AJS
PS: I have had another look at the UN text which you describe as being of "poor quality". Unfortunately, I cannot concur.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 days (2013-03-18 01:28:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hello there,
This question will close automatically on Tuesday. The KudoZ robot will automatically award the points to 'aggravated imprisonment' which is currently on +5. To quote your own words when you launched this enquiry: "Aggravated imprisonment? Can't find a thing." The leading answer found an example that you could easily have found yourself by googling the phrase in double quote marks. You will in the meantime have received several automatically generated requests to close this question yourself and provide feedback. I certainly have for the parallel question. So what was the solution you chose? Was it indeed 'aggravated imprisonment', and was it the double intervention of Dr Timm that convinced you. Or was it Kim Metzger's Irish find?
Regards
AJS
Note from asker:
I think the language of your link is of poor quality and there is a typo in the heading. The internet is patient sometimes! But thanks for the research.
The UN is not a linguistic authority (EU websites on the other hand are in my opinion) and I am not a fan of the UN anyway.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Kim Metzger : Reference: Irish journalist http://patrickmacmanus.wordpress.com/page/38/
2 hrs
Hi Kim. The case for 'aggravated' is looking less and less convincing. Even Carmen seems embarrassed by the description. // I think Albert is leaving this to the robot. The Irish journalist's version is to be selected on the basis of votes from Kim et al.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

33 mins
Reference:

What it involves

.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Kim Metzger : So no hard labour in Turkey, it seems.
24 mins
I think I'd rather do hard labour than stare at the wall!
Something went wrong...
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