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| | | four languages per country or region doesn't mean everyone speaks four native languages | Jul 30, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Let's try Switzerland, Singapore, Philippines, India...heck, let's throw the Spanish-speaking American community into the mix while we're at it.
| | | | Lincoln Hui 
Hong Kong
Local time: 12:51
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| I have no problem with verification... | Jul 30, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Lincoln Hui wrote: Although I have no problem with letting anyone claim two native languages when they first register at Proz.com, I would like to see this status limited to a certain period of time after which, since no verification process is in place, the user or member should have to choose between one of these declared languages and his/her profile page should then only display one native language. That could be the rule. But as I stated: If certain exceptions for regions or individuals with multiple native languages seem warranted and declaring two native languages as verified native languages should be allowed, then I would suggest an appropriate application form as I have suggested a few pages ago.
...because I know I can pass any verification process, but what you are suggesting is that "if there isn't a verification process, no exceptions should be allowed".
four languages per country or region doesn't mean everyone speaks four native languages
My point exactly, because trying to tell what someone's native language is just from his/her country of birth and where they went to high school is futile unless you can see their name and skin color.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:51
Hebrew to English
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I think you may just not be in touch with the reality here. Just look at any employment application, what types of discrimination are forbidden. One of them is on the basis of ethnicity. How can you avoid ethnicity-related questions, if you are asking someone about their native language? It would have been different, if you were asking them about their best language, or dominant language, but not native. This is why it is strictly forbidden in NY to use this term in any formal situations. This is all I can tell you.
Easily, ethnicity and language are not inextricably linked. You can't pull out multiculturalism when it suits you and try to ignore it when it doesn't.
| | | | | No, you could not really, but the main problem is | Jul 30, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Another alternative to actual verification of two native languages at Proz.com would be to keep everything as it is now until a new verification procedure has been installed but to display in the search results that the native language (if only one is declared) is verified (for members) or that it is unverified (because two native languages are declared).
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:06 GMT] you may not even be allowed to do it in the US. Having spent most of my life here, mostly in language and literature related environments, I have never in my life heard about anything like that. I know they verify bilingualism in college -- you are considered bilingual if one of your language is university level and you have completed at least 3 years of high school in another language. I don't think any other verification would be legal, in the US. Your native language is whatever you say this, but most people usually don't use the word native, haven't you noticed? I think you live in another state -- sometimes it may be like a different country, yet the federal laws are the same. "Verifying" sounds like a nasty word. Granted. Doesn't have to be though. How about "identifying"? If you let me know where you were born and where you went to school in your teenage years, I can probably identify your native language. I don't see anything wrong with that. I declare that German is my native language and it really is. It's an important piece of information that I as a translator am ready to share with anyone. Bernhard [Edited at 2013-07-30 18:25 GMT]
that native language is a very vague term in multilingual societies. It may be less of a problem in small, mono-cultural mostly, towns.
Perhaps we should have a button best language, or dominant language, instead of native. It may sometimes coincide with L1, but not always. You are not really allowed to ask personal details like that in any work- related situations, if the person does not volunteer to tell you. Plus, even if you were allowed -- what difference would it make that someone spoke X language until 11 or 15, but then they never wrote any academic papers in it, and have not spoken it much. Would that make them a qualified translator into that language? It is really irrelevant to translation. Are many people pretending, in your opinion, that German is their native language?
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:45 GMT]
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| applying and freelancing | Jul 30, 2013 |
If you were to apply for a full-time job (with benefits, hopefully) at a translation agency in New York, they're probably going to want to know what your native language is because they advertise with "native language translators". Your application form might contain a disclaimer that by filling out the application, you permit them to ask you that.
As a freelance translator, it is also a part of one's "portfolio" to put out there what your native language is, and, in addition, how ... See more If you were to apply for a full-time job (with benefits, hopefully) at a translation agency in New York, they're probably going to want to know what your native language is because they advertise with "native language translators". Your application form might contain a disclaimer that by filling out the application, you permit them to ask you that.
As a freelance translator, it is also a part of one's "portfolio" to put out there what your native language is, and, in addition, how well you speak other languages.
That should always be a plus, not a minus.
My two cents.
Bernhard ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Never -- they might be sued (theoretically). They can test you, but | Jul 30, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
If you were to apply for a full-time job (with benefits, hopefully) at a translation agency in New York, they're probably going to want to know what your native language is because they advertise with "native language translators". Your application form might contain a disclaimer that by filling out the application, you permit them to ask you that.
As a freelance translator, it is also a part of one's "portfolio" to put out there what your native language is, and, in addition, how well you speak other languages.
That should always be a plus, not a minus.
My two cents.
Bernhard
but they cannot ask you anything about native, ethnic, religion-related, age, and many other things. They can test you, for sure -- your proficiency level, not nativeness. If fact native language, often does not mean the best, but the language of your ethnic group. This is why term is even more confusing.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:50 GMT]
| | | | | native language is not a vague concept in our profession | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
... native language is a very vague term in multilingual societies. It may be less of a problem in small, mono-cultural mostly, towns.
I talked about that already in this thread. But in short, it's not vague to me. Do you mean to say you couldn't ascertain your own native language?
I invited you to tell me where you grew up and went to school. That should be a huge hint for what your native language is.
| | | | | As a linguist, I am not sure what you mean by native language. | Jul 30, 2013 |
It is a term that has multiple meanings -- all quite vague. If you make the question more precise, then perhaps I could answer it, but I doubt the term can be turned into a precise term.
The native language term used by the outsources is a totally abstract concept that does not exist in the reality.
I have a feeling that to them it means.
Someone who has acquired perfect competence in L1 between the ages of 1-5, let's say, and
has lived in th... See more It is a term that has multiple meanings -- all quite vague. If you make the question more precise, then perhaps I could answer it, but I doubt the term can be turned into a precise term.
The native language term used by the outsources is a totally abstract concept that does not exist in the reality.
I have a feeling that to them it means.
Someone who has acquired perfect competence in L1 between the ages of 1-5, let's say, and
has lived in the country where L1 is spoken for most of his or her life, has all high school and college education in L1, and yet miraculously can translate from L2 that he or she has learned mostly in college. Of course there are people like that, but how many, especially in certain language pairs. In Polish to English, perhaps ten in the world. In Russian to English, perhaps 50. In Lithuanian to English, perhaps one or two.
If I were really to go with this term, it would be the language you think in (if people really think in a language -- there is still no consensus on that), the language you have been using in everyday life, most of your life, or for years, that you have most of your eduction in, have used mostly at work, you identify with -- first of all, you understand almost 100% -- (not in very specialized areas, like bio-chemistry or molecular physics), but what an average educated citizen understands and you can express almost anything in.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 19:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| native and non-native | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
but they cannot ask you anything about native, ethnic, religion-related, age, and many other things. They can test you, for sure -- your proficiency level, not nativeness. If fact native language, often does not mean the best, but the language of your ethnic group. This is why term is even more confusing.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:50 GMT]
In our profession, native language most often means "best" language.
If you lost the proficiency in your own native language, then yes, you might be an advanced speaker of another language. That doesn't make you a native speaker of that language but you're not arguing that anyway.
I am sure you can declare that the language you speak best is a non-native language of yours. You might even convince a translation agency not to have to reveal your native language. But then you won't be considered a native speaker of any language which in our profession is rather a rare thing.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:59 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 21:51
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Bona fide occupational qualifications | Jul 30, 2013 |
"Known as bona fide occupational qualifications (BFOQ) in US employment law and bona fide occupational requirements (BFOR) in Canadian employment law, there are some select, few qualities or attributes that employers are allowed to consider when making decisions on the hiring and retention of employees—qualities that, when considered in other contexts, would constitute discrimination and, thus, in violation of civil rights employment law.
... See more "Known as bona fide occupational qualifications (BFOQ) in US employment law and bona fide occupational requirements (BFOR) in Canadian employment law, there are some select, few qualities or attributes that employers are allowed to consider when making decisions on the hiring and retention of employees—qualities that, when considered in other contexts, would constitute discrimination and, thus, in violation of civil rights employment law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_occupational_qualifications
"Discrimination against people based on their race, religion, gender, national origin, age or other protected status is generally prohibited under the laws of the U.S. However, in some rare circumstances, the very nature of the job requires you to choose candidates based on what are otherwise protected characteristics."
http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/employment-law-and-human-resources/bona-fide-occupational-qualification.html
"Bona fide occupational qualifications (BFOQ) are employment qualifications that employers are allowed to consider while making decisions about hiring and retention of employees. The qualification should relate to an essential job duty and is considered necessary for operation of the particular business."
http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/bona-fide-occupational-qualification/
[Edited at 2013-07-30 19:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is a term that has multiple meanings -- all quite vague. If you make the question more precise, then perhaps I could answer it, but I doubt the term can be turned into a precise term.
The native language term used by outsources is a totally abstract concept that does not exist in the reality.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:53 GMT]
The reality is that usually everyone knows what their native language is - it's the one they grew up with, were taught in school with, and have complete control over (the last part can of course be lost somewhat if you stop speaking it but if you were to pick it up again after you had spoken it throughout your childhood and teenage years, you will probably soon speak it again better than any other languages you ever learned).
A native language is "usually" bound to a certain region or country where the language is the or one of the official languages.
If someone was born and/or educated throughout their childhood and teenage years in Poland, it's fair to say that Polish is their native language.
If two or more languages are official languages in a region or country, and you were born there and educated ..., then it is possible you have two native languages if indeed everyone in this region speaks both languages, is taught at school using both languages, uses both languages in their social surroundings throughout their childhood and teenage years .....
I have no problem defining my native language as German.
So, Lilian, can you tell me now what your native language is?
Bernhard
If you were born in New York City, grew up there, went to school there, and had friends and family there and had contact with the "outside" world, your native language is most likely (US) English.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 19:12 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:51
Hebrew to English
| Not anymore, .... | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
If [sic] fact native language, often does not mean the best, but the language of your ethnic group. This is why term is even more confusing.
That's what native language meant, about 200 years ago.
The times they are a changin'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbMlHGEICuY
As I said, multiculturalism has muddied those waters.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 19:11 GMT]
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| Yes, then this term should be forbidden once and for all | Jul 30, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
but they cannot ask you anything about native, ethnic, religion-related, age, and many other things. They can test you, for sure -- your proficiency level, not nativeness. If fact native language, often does not mean the best, but the language of your ethnic group. This is why term is even more confusing.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:50 GMT] In our profession, native language most often means "best" language. If you lost the proficiency in your own native language, then yes, you might be an advanced speaker of another language. That doesn't make you a native speaker of that language but you're not arguing that anyway. I am sure you can declare that the language you speak best is a non-native language of yours. You might even convince a translation agency not to have to reveal your native language. But then you won't be considered a native speaker of any language which in our profession is rather a rare thing. Bernhard [Edited at 2013-07-30 18:59 GMT]
because in this sense it becomes the source of prejudice and discrimination, and seems to be totally senseless and without merit. As an all-embracing, vague term, it still stands a chance.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:51
Hebrew to English
| We're treading over old ground here.... | Jul 30, 2013 |
The fact that Lilian thinks the term "native language" is vague was well established in the mammoth thread. As I recall, not many people agreed with her then either. And pretty much everyone agreed there's not a hope in hell of "banning" it.
| | | | | Well it depends,,but it is not as simple as you might think. | Jul 30, 2013 |
Michele Fauble wrote: "Known as bona fide occupational qualifications (BFOQ) in US employment law and bona fide occupational requirements (BFOR) in Canadian employment law, there are some select, few qualities or an attributes that employers are allowed to consider when making decisions on the hiring and retention of employees—qualities that, when considered in other contexts, would constitute discrimination and, thus, in violation of civil rights employment law." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_occupational_qualifications[Edited at 2013-07-30 19:18 GMT]
If you are looking for a Catholic priest -- the person should be Catholic -- and you can ask them about their religion. If you need a Russian translator, of course you have to ask them if they speak Russian, and what the level of their language is, and then they can tell you, if they vish to that they learned it in Russia, or somewhere else. You cannot require that anybody spoke any language from childhood, and they had learned it in their childhood. You can only require top proficiency, if it is really justified. Usually top proficiency is only required for certain tasks.
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