| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Ethics: how do you deal with harmful or misleading materials? Thread poster: Dan Dascalescu
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| Consider the possibility ... | Nov 8, 2012 |
I don't know about the particular text under discussion, but consider the possibility that the translation might be needed in order to investigate/prosecute/stop the practice concerned. Do you know what the client wants the translation for?
How can the police/courts deal with possible crimes/frauds unless they understand the content of documents, websites, etc. that may be criminal/fraudulent?
Jenny
| | | | Dan Dascalescu 
United States
Local time: 12:04
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | The integrity to NOT translate materials you KNOW are false | Nov 8, 2012 |
@Jenny and those who suggested "What if the text is a work of fiction". Well sure, in that case the answer is trivial and not very interesting to discuss. The common case, when translators translate materials that are intended to be taken at face value, is what's worth pondering.
Shai Nave wrote:
On the other hand, I try not to judge others. We all have our different believes and perspectives on things and life, and although I may consider something to be completely nonsense, others may think otherwise.
An excellent guide to objectively distinguish fact from fiction is Carl Sagan's famous Baloney Detection Kit
That said, I can't agree more with Shai:
What I find more troubling are those who actually think (and sometimes even know) that the content is fraudulent and/or harmful, but still take it.
This.
[Edited at 2012-11-08 08:24 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-11-13 10:06 GMT]
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 21:04
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
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| everybody lies... | Nov 8, 2012 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Driving motor vehicles, owning weapons, extreme sports, dangerous animals as pets, or plastic surgery are all practices that have seriously injured and killed many thousands of people. Why don't you recommend not to translate about these things as well?
Let's not forget : religion, economics, trade, stock market and extreme weather.. even toys containing lead paint... All killers of thousands if not millions of people.
Bogus medical stuff is maybe something I would personally refuse, and I would also refuse to work on race-hate propaganda and phishing e-mails, but I would probably work on medicinal use of weed or Aloe Vera... or other home grown products.... there is a fine line in perception and personal feelings about all sorts of subject matters... And even if it was bogus, would my pride as a translator not want me to make sure this bogus is correctly translated into another language.... Difficult call....
Basically, even if you are translating a manual for the best vacuum cleaner ever - is that not a blatant lie?
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Ed
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule |
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| The problem is the definition of quackery | Nov 8, 2012 |
Dan Dascalescu wrote:
I would refuse outright any contract involving the promotion of misinformation, let alone fraudulent and unproven medical practices, ... [P]articularly in the medical field, material that advocates unproven alternative medicine "therapies" often ends up hurting or killing people...
I believe something should be done to strongly discourage translators for taking contracts involving these sorts of materials.
The problem, as I said, is the definition of quackery. What is wasteful or even harmful quackery to you may be something that someone else either believes in or does not believe to be inherently harmful. Many of the instances of harm mentioned on the site you linked to relate to events that would have been illegal anyway. Most Western countries have laws about making medical claims that can't be substantiated and about non-traditional medical practices that may be harmful.
The periodic table you linked to contain a lot of things that may be ridiculous but which doesn't really harm most people who participate in it or believe in it. And in many cases the benefit of keeping the person's time occupied is greater than any danger that the activity may pose.
I just find it interesting that the FAQ of that quackery site you linked to contain only objections related to excuses, and not to reasons. I think most people who don't believe the quacks would not doubt that quackery can lead to loss of life, health, and wealth... in some very specific cases.
Finally I wonder who are the real quacks -- the parents whose child died of starvation due to a vegan diet, or the judge and jury who sentenced them to life in prison for the "murder" of their child, or the legislators who refuse to make laws that require all children to be taken from their parents brought up in institutions where their health and wellbeing can be guaranteed 100%.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 20:04
Member (2007)
English
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| Today's "misleading materials" are tomorrow's science | Nov 8, 2012 |
It does blow my mind that so many people believe in things which I find so totally unbelievable, but as an atheist I guess I'm in a minority so I don't shout my mouth off about it. I can't force people to see what I see in the idea of a God, and more than they can force me to believe in one. We have to get along - tolerance goes a long way.
We also have to remember that science is NOT infallible. To take one topical issue, I was brought up believing that the use of leeches in medici... See more It does blow my mind that so many people believe in things which I find so totally unbelievable, but as an atheist I guess I'm in a minority so I don't shout my mouth off about it. I can't force people to see what I see in the idea of a God, and more than they can force me to believe in one. We have to get along - tolerance goes a long way.
We also have to remember that science is NOT infallible. To take one topical issue, I was brought up believing that the use of leeches in medicine was so much twaddle. Nowadays, they are acknowledged as having an important role to play in medicine. So, yesterdays' quackery turns out to be today's science.
You gave a link to the death of Steve Jobs: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/food-thought/201110/alternative-medicine-the-death-steve-jobs
Why don't you read it again? It does NOT say what you said. It calls critics of his decision "harsh"; says "medical treatment decisions are not black and white"
Oops: sent it before I was ready, but I think I've made the point I wanted to make
[Edited at 2012-11-08 09:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Floating truths | Nov 8, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Finally I wonder who are the real quacks -- the parents whose child died of starvation due to a vegan diet, or the judge and jury who sentenced them to life in prison for the "murder" of their child, or the legislators who refuse to make laws that require all children to be taken from their parents brought up in institutions where their health and wellbeing can be guaranteed 100%.
I am quite sure that children growing in the free floating cities of the future will be brought up in a scientific manner so that they only learn and believe the truths decided by a council of members. They will be spared from all the nonsense of the world by wise men who can choose the right beliefs wisely.
[Edited at 2012-11-08 10:01 GMT]
| | | | Dan Dascalescu
United States
Local time: 12:04
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I HAVE read the Steve Jobs article very carefully | Nov 8, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
We also have to remember that science is NOT infallible.
As a fellow atheist, it will be no news if I tell you that while science is NOT infallible, it IS self-policing. Unlike religion or homeopathy or telekinesis.
Sheila Wilson wrote:
You gave a link to the death of Steve Jobs:
Why don't you read it again? It does NOT say what you said.
Here's what it says while trying to remain politically correct and "tolerant" toward "alternative" medicine (which if worked, would just be called "medicine"):
One of the most troubling things about working with those with cancer is to see them being taken advantage of by uninformed charlatans promoting "natural cancer cures."
While the decision to pursue treatment lies with the individual, it is imperative that they be given accurate information to make informed and educated treatment decisions. Too many times information from unverified Internet sources or well-meaning relatives or friends, does more harm than good.
And this is exactly where some of us jump in, propagating inaccurate (to say the least) information.
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 22:04
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| A question of culture | Nov 8, 2012 |
In many part of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union people seem to believe nothing and at the same time tend to believe whatever they happen to read somewhere. Personally I would turn down a job that stinks of quackery, but the fact is you cannot stop it. It certainly is not the job of Proz.com to judge in this matter. The affected countries should amend their legislation instead.
| | | | Kipale78
Italy
Local time: 21:04
English to Italian
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| Work with what you feel comfortable with but | Nov 8, 2012 |
Hi,
I think that you should refuse something you don't want to be involved with. I would never work for homophobic, racist groups, for example.
Still, in this particular issue one might not be in the position to have an informed opinion.
Alternative medicine exists, and has its place. I worked for years with people who were doing alternative physiotherapy treatments with CP children, with outstanding results.
I personally think that people s... See more Hi,
I think that you should refuse something you don't want to be involved with. I would never work for homophobic, racist groups, for example.
Still, in this particular issue one might not be in the position to have an informed opinion.
Alternative medicine exists, and has its place. I worked for years with people who were doing alternative physiotherapy treatments with CP children, with outstanding results.
I personally think that people should choose by themselves, through information. Censorship of the sources (such as: not translating a text) is plain - sorry - stupid. If you think that those materials are bogus, so will a reader. Another one might find them useful, and that is in his right. I'd rather know that there are 3 ways to treat my headache and then choose the most appropriate for me.
That's my informed opinion, after years working in the medical field.
Good luck everyone.
[Edited at 2012-11-08 11:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:04
Portuguese to English
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with what you call quackery. Acupuncture has been practised for millennia in China, so I believe you've managed to insult one billion people with one statement in the KudoZ forum.
If people believe in UFOs - just let them be.
I remember my grandmother's herbal teas, I also remember putting aloe vera drops in my eyes or plantain leaves on my nasty scratches. Is that quackery?
I hate atheists' self-righteousness. Please keep it to yourself.
[Edited at... See more with what you call quackery. Acupuncture has been practised for millennia in China, so I believe you've managed to insult one billion people with one statement in the KudoZ forum.
If people believe in UFOs - just let them be.
I remember my grandmother's herbal teas, I also remember putting aloe vera drops in my eyes or plantain leaves on my nasty scratches. Is that quackery?
I hate atheists' self-righteousness. Please keep it to yourself.
[Edited at 2012-11-08 11:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule |
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Back to the topic... | Nov 8, 2012 |
Dan Dascalescu wrote:
While not ending up in censoring the site, I believe something should be done to strongly discourage translators for taking contracts involving these sorts of materials. Are there policies on this topic?
Well, the thing that prompted your post was a KudoZ question, and not a jobs post, so there would be no way for ProZ.com to detect whether the text violates any kind of standard or principle.
As for policing jobs that are posted on ProZ.com itself, I would have no objection to either a system that tries to detect ethics code violations by way of keywords or that helps users to report such violations more easily than simply submitting a ticket into the void. I would have no objection to either of those things, but I'm not sure if it can be successfully implemented, for the simple reason that the definition of quackery is not precise.
Also, a pair of such systems might actually harm each other or cancel each other out. If jobs posters learn that their jobs posts are flagged when they include words like accupuncture or creationism, they will simply learn to stop using those words, but then translators who have used the presence of such words to weed out jobs that they're not interested in will end up wasting a lot of time weeding out jobs in other ways.
I agree that answering your original question with "what if it is fiction" or "what if it is for a court case" is silly, because the issue here is texts that cause harm and/or texts that mislead the gullible or ill-informed. Arguments such as "allow readers to make informed choices" ignore the fact that harmful, misleading text will not increase the chance that a reader will make the right decision but will actually increase the chance that his "informed decision" is the wrong decision. A reader faced with multiple sources telling him different things will not necessarily believe the truth.
There is definitely something to be said for dealing cautiously when being asked to translate harmful or misleading materials. The problem is that what is harmful or what is misleading is not always each to define. Even if something is bollocks it may not be harmful.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:04
Hebrew to English
| Personal / Professional Ethics. | Nov 8, 2012 |
How do I deal with harmful or misleading materials?
Simple. Just abide by my own personal / professional ethics. (And everybody's threshold will be different). You also have to consider the purpose of the translation. Perhaps some Quackery needs to be translated into language x before it can be properly debunked in that language.
In the Digital Age you can't really affect the flow of information on a grand scale so even if you decide not to translate it yourself, it do... See more How do I deal with harmful or misleading materials?
Simple. Just abide by my own personal / professional ethics. (And everybody's threshold will be different). You also have to consider the purpose of the translation. Perhaps some Quackery needs to be translated into language x before it can be properly debunked in that language.
In the Digital Age you can't really affect the flow of information on a grand scale so even if you decide not to translate it yourself, it doesn't mean it will go away. This isn't really an argument for "you may as well do it anyway" but it's something to consider.
[Edited at 2012-11-08 13:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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