| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | How to make sure clients will pay after translations have been submitted Thread poster: steph_cuevas
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steph_cuevas 
Canada
Local time: 07:24
Member (2010)
English to Tagalog
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I am Stephanie a freelancer Tagalog translator. I would like to ask my fellow translators if you ever had an experience or experiences where the client you worked with did not pay you? In this case, what measures you did and what is the best way to prevent this unfortunate incident to happen again.
I would greatly appreciate any replies/advise from my fellow translators here in Proz.com.
Thank you in advance.
Best regards,
... See more I am Stephanie a freelancer Tagalog translator. I would like to ask my fellow translators if you ever had an experience or experiences where the client you worked with did not pay you? In this case, what measures you did and what is the best way to prevent this unfortunate incident to happen again.
I would greatly appreciate any replies/advise from my fellow translators here in Proz.com.
Thank you in advance.
Best regards,
Stephanie ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How to tell in advance if a client will not pay | Mar 13, 2010 |
Dear Stephanie,
I will leave others to suggest how to collect payment. However, in the case of an agency using ProZ.com to advertise jobs, it should be effective to use the Blue Board system.
Around once every year - and every year that I have been in business so far - I have done one translation that has not been paid for. However, I realise that there is a pattern to the order being placed, and it is always the same. Therefore, I now do not accept the order, after rec... See more Dear Stephanie,
I will leave others to suggest how to collect payment. However, in the case of an agency using ProZ.com to advertise jobs, it should be effective to use the Blue Board system.
Around once every year - and every year that I have been in business so far - I have done one translation that has not been paid for. However, I realise that there is a pattern to the order being placed, and it is always the same. Therefore, I now do not accept the order, after recognising the pattern.
The pattern is: a PM from an agency with whom you have never previously worked contacts you and asks you to take on a job of around several thousand words within a short deadline (24 hours maybe). It is probably possible for you to do it in the time, as long as you have absolutely nothing else to do during those 24 hours (for example, no other clients to attend to either).
You may look at the file(s) and find out that there is something complicated about the job. Either it does not match your experience, there are technical complexities, glossaries are attached, but not in a convenient form... and you turn it down.
The PM, however, is still contacting you several hours later, trying to persuade you to take the job, and sometimes even persists the next day as well. This is despite the fact that you have no existing business relationship with the agency.
A couple of noticeable things are: (1) during the course of the ongoing exchange with the PM, the price is never discussed. You are not asked about your price, nor is a price suggested; (2) a PO is promised later (when the PM *has time* to prepare it - however note that he/she appears to have unlimited time at the moment).
However, the most significant factor is the time that the PM spends trying to persuade you to do the job. Business people do not normally invest that kind of time. They go elsewhere.
Please be aware that, in some cases, the agency in question may have an excellent Blue Board record. If they are in financial difficulties, or may be going out of business soon, this will not necessarily yet be reflected in the Blue Board record. However, early signs may consist of the above behaviour.
Astrid
[Edited at 2010-03-13 09:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Several points | Mar 13, 2010 |
Dear Stephanie,
I have decided for myself that it is better to check the client's reliability right from the beginning instead of not knowing wheter my work will be paid or not.
As a result, I have 2 methods:
- I always check the client's LWA on Proz. If the client has less than 4 points, I never work for them.
> If it is a translation agency that is NOT registered on Proz, I check 2 other translators' forums which offer similar evaluatio... See more Dear Stephanie,
I have decided for myself that it is better to check the client's reliability right from the beginning instead of not knowing wheter my work will be paid or not.
As a result, I have 2 methods:
- I always check the client's LWA on Proz. If the client has less than 4 points, I never work for them.
> If it is a translation agency that is NOT registered on Proz, I check 2 other translators' forums which offer similar evaluations.
> If I find no evaluation of this agency / client, then I use my second method:
- I look very precisely at the negociated prices and conditions. If the client has no evaluation on Proz or other websites and accepts extremely high prices without discussing, I'm automatically suspicious.
A serious clients who really intends to pay you will negociate the price and payment conditions.
As a result, I prefer to accept lower paid jobs when the client has a good LWA or when they negociate the prices, because it is a proof that they do intend to pay me in the end.
Of course sometimes I certainly miss good opportunities, but in the end I'm sure I will be paid without having to wait months or turn to a lawyer (which means time loss and costs)
[Modifié le 2010-03-13 09:57 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lars Jelking
Israel
Local time: 14:24
English to Swedish
+ ...
| Demand a project number | Mar 13, 2010 |
Beside the above mentioned: Demand a project number. Serious and honest agencies will supply you with one. If they don’t, refuse the job. Since I began this practice I had no problem with payment from new outsourcers, and the serious ones does it willingly.
Also, I never accept a job without having reviewed the source material and, if working with CAT tool, run an analyze of word count and possible use of TMs. You may bid with your “standard” fee only to find the formatting co... See more Beside the above mentioned: Demand a project number. Serious and honest agencies will supply you with one. If they don’t, refuse the job. Since I began this practice I had no problem with payment from new outsourcers, and the serious ones does it willingly.
Also, I never accept a job without having reviewed the source material and, if working with CAT tool, run an analyze of word count and possible use of TMs. You may bid with your “standard” fee only to find the formatting complicated, demanding and time consuming (=poor hourly salary).
New contacts are always gambles. More often than not you’ll get a thank you and never hear from them again. But occasionally it develops into a long-lasting and (presumably) for both fruitful relationships. Nurture those!
[Edited at 2010-03-13 10:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:24
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| A few points | Mar 13, 2010 |
Hi Stephanie
I think the most convenient jobs for scam clients are small jobs. They use the following logic: which translator would go into a fuss of hiring a payment collection agency because of a $100 or $50 invoice ? ( the costs you'd pay to the collection agency would be higher than your invoice). Therefore, beware of such small jobs and ask for the payment upfront ( particularly with first-time clients)
As Astrid suggested, there are always indicators you can obse... See more Hi Stephanie
I think the most convenient jobs for scam clients are small jobs. They use the following logic: which translator would go into a fuss of hiring a payment collection agency because of a $100 or $50 invoice ? ( the costs you'd pay to the collection agency would be higher than your invoice). Therefore, beware of such small jobs and ask for the payment upfront ( particularly with first-time clients)
As Astrid suggested, there are always indicators you can observe and pay special attention to:
~ general feeling of oddness
~ the PM is evidently disorganized and/or speaks very bad English
~ no purchase order
~ the PM doesn't know his/her job ( overall translation dynamic, quality procedure, setting an appropriate deadline, or related)
~ the PM is persistently negotiating the price down
~ they offer bank wire transfer only and exclusively as a payment method, and then keep sending you small jobs ( e.g. $20 jobs)- which means the full amount would be lost in transaction process ( wire transfer fees) which should make you give it up and leave them your earnings ( happened to me with one agency, my money is still with them)
~ all sorts of trickery; for example they do something unprofessional and unethical to you then trying to twist it around and accuse of what they did to you ( saying you did it to them)
The PM's behavior and style of communication will tell you 80 % about the agency.
Always try to test them on small jobs first, if possible.
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | David Wright
Austria
Local time: 13:24
German to English
+ ...
To be honest, in all my professional years (30) I have only ever had one client who attempted not to pay.
Firstly, I ONLY work for regular clients; stuff that comes in from anyone who does not tell me where they got my name (i.e., from another of my clients) I simply turn down.
Secondly, I have legal insurance cover in case a customer decides not to pay (which I have never used).
Thirdly, I made it clear to the client (an advertising agency) who was thinking about not paying... See more To be honest, in all my professional years (30) I have only ever had one client who attempted not to pay.
Firstly, I ONLY work for regular clients; stuff that comes in from anyone who does not tell me where they got my name (i.e., from another of my clients) I simply turn down.
Secondly, I have legal insurance cover in case a customer decides not to pay (which I have never used).
Thirdly, I made it clear to the client (an advertising agency) who was thinking about not paying (for no reason whatsoever - this was not a disputed translation) that I retained the copyright in my translation, and that I would be prepared to inform his client that they were not allowed to use it - which would cause him huge embarassment. He paid.
Obviously life is more difficult for a beginner hoping to get work, but I still woudl receommend not taking work from sources you don't know. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Avoiding bad clients, and rewarding the good ones | Mar 13, 2010 |
Astrid and Elodie and all the others have posted very valuable information. Thanks to everyone !
My technique for avoiding bad clients is not as sophisticated, I usually trust my instincts.
Blueboard marks are indeed a very good indicator, and it is quite easy to recognize the cases when the mark is not perfect because of a lone unprofessional translator retaliating for getting what he probably deserved.
When in doubt, one should not hesitate to contact the author... See more Astrid and Elodie and all the others have posted very valuable information. Thanks to everyone !
My technique for avoiding bad clients is not as sophisticated, I usually trust my instincts.
Blueboard marks are indeed a very good indicator, and it is quite easy to recognize the cases when the mark is not perfect because of a lone unprofessional translator retaliating for getting what he probably deserved.
When in doubt, one should not hesitate to contact the authors of negative comments on the Blueboard to ask for clarifications, and inquire if the issues mentioned have been settled afterwards (there is a very big difference between a late payer and a non-payer ! ).
Astrid's story is interesting, something similar happened to me recently. An agency repeatedly contacted me for an important, large-volume job (10,000 words or so), that I was qualified to do but not exactly one of my specialties. I was puzzled by this insistence..
Some investigation revealed that they were late payers and behaved unprofessionally. QED
This valuable advice is sometimes given to beginner translators: they should be extremely selective with their clients, and keep their burger-flipping business out of their translator CV. This is a bit counter-intuitive because at first people try to get contracts of all kinds to quickly generate some income.
Pro-bono translations for serious organizations are usually a better investment, enabling the beginners to eventually find some paid contracts with good clients.
I tried my best to follow this advice, and I am happy to say that until now I never had to send any angry payment reminders - only polite ones; and I have an excellent relationship with all my clients.
Of course, such clients expect to be 'paid' in return with clean translations delivered on time. Some translators tend to forget about this (and this is why I am not too keen on accepting proofreading jobs).
A final word for Stephanie: one of the ways to make sure that your good clients remain good and to spot the bad ones is to be as polite, professional and enthusiastic as possible with them. Good agency managers usually show that they like their job and the human aspects associated with it, while the bad ones sometimes make you feel like they hate you as much as they hate their work. This might be very basic human psychology but the message is that you should listen to what your instincts tell you.
[Edited at 2010-03-13 11:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 13:24
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | Astrid summed it up beautifully! | Mar 13, 2010 |
Other warning flags:
They don't divulge where they found you (or tell you they found you on the internet (sic!))
They don't introduce themselves and leave no full name, no address, no phone or fax (the good ones give their Skype name)
They don't tell you the subject matter (If it's a nuclear plant manual or a hotel brochure)
They tell you how they will pay instead of following your wishes.
etc.
Listen to the mu... See more Other warning flags:
They don't divulge where they found you (or tell you they found you on the internet (sic!))
They don't introduce themselves and leave no full name, no address, no phone or fax (the good ones give their Skype name)
They don't tell you the subject matter (If it's a nuclear plant manual or a hotel brochure)
They tell you how they will pay instead of following your wishes.
etc.
Listen to the music.....
Mats
[Edited at 2010-03-13 11:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:24
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| One more - Inconsistency | Mar 13, 2010 |
Inconsistency! They tell you one thing, agree on the other and ultimately do a third one!
X - Y- Z pattern
[Edited at 2010-03-13 11:46 GMT]
| | | | | I just did the same! | Mar 13, 2010 |
David Wright wrote:
Thirdly, I made it clear to the client (an advertising agency) who was thinking about not paying (for no reason whatsoever - this was not a disputed translation) that I retained the copyright in my translation, and that I would be prepared to inform his client that they were not allowed to use it - which would cause him huge embarrassment. He paid.
Given the way we work, we accept a job and later get paid, there is always the possibility to get fleeced. But we always have to take some risk if we want to develop our client's base. However, common sense and intuition are the best tools to assess whether a client will pay or not.
Common sense is verifying references. For instance, are they providing an address, phone number, PO, do they have a web-page that looks real, etc. How did they hear from you (a friend or colleague, an association's directory). If possible, can you call other translators to ask about their working experience with this client, etc.
Intuition works on things like those mentioned by Astrid: they never ask for your rate, they keep insisting despite you having refused the job, or you just have a funny feeling about this client.
I never accept a huge job from a new client unless they are willing to deposit 50 per cent of the invoice total in advance. I always explain that, since they are a new client, and this is a big job, I need to protect myself, and that, in the future, once a relationship has been established, this will no longer be needed. Some disappear, some accept and a new relationship (of respect) is indeed established.
The most dangerous, to me, are your already well known clients who might be going through a bad financial situation. This happened to me recently. I had done probably ten translations in the past two years for a consulting firm. They were mostly small jobs and I had always been paid in time. Last December, they contacted me with three urgent jobs worth over $1,200 US. I accommodated their needs and delivered everything before Xmas, without any doubt. January came, and no check. February came, and no check. I wrote to them. No answer. I called them. Got the receptionist who would pass my message on, but no answer.
What really made me angry was that ALL of my translations were already up on the web (but this was going to be my weapon). I then began to realize something was wrong with this company. I sent another e-mail informing that if I did not receive a satisfactory response, I would be forced to use other means (we were already in March). I immediately received an e-mail from the owner saying she had been sick and she would mail a cheque on Monday. I answered that given the three months delay, I now preferred a money transfer. I got no answer, and no confirmation that a cheque had been issued. On Wednesday I sent a message saying that if the money was not in my account by Friday, I would contact the people that had uploaded my translations on the web to ask them to take them down, since they were still my intellectual property, as I had not been paid for them. Guess what? In less than five hours, the money was in my account, and I got an e-mail from them complaining about my lack of trust. I explained to them all they had done to break my trust, and told them that, if they had any problem to pay in time, the first thing would have been to contact me and explain. If they do not do this, I cannot help but believe their are trying to get a free lunch. In any case, I know for sure that they now respect me more than before.
One last thing: Never let your invoices go overdue by more than three months. There are studies that demonstrate that the longer an invoice goes unpaid, the more difficult it becomes to collect it. My payment terms are 30 days. If payment was due on May 2, for example, I call on May 15, if I have not received the cheque (or transfer). By June 2 (already two months), I am sending messages to the debtor, and if I do not get a satisfactory answer, I start pressing really hard.
[Edited at 2010-03-13 14:14 GMT]
| | | | | Too late now! | Mar 13, 2010 |
Thank you for your wisdom, most of which fits the category of the client who is now refusing to pay. One more word, if the payment terms are 60 days from the beginning of the month following the invoice date, ie. you invoice them on 1.11. and the 60 days start from 1.12. do not touch with a barge pole. My insticts told me too late I should have left this agency well alone. The PM was Indian. I didn't understand a word he said when he rang. I had to pass the phone to hubby who is used to dea... See more Thank you for your wisdom, most of which fits the category of the client who is now refusing to pay. One more word, if the payment terms are 60 days from the beginning of the month following the invoice date, ie. you invoice them on 1.11. and the 60 days start from 1.12. do not touch with a barge pole. My insticts told me too late I should have left this agency well alone. The PM was Indian. I didn't understand a word he said when he rang. I had to pass the phone to hubby who is used to dealing with these guys. Then the PM kept changing the deadline and the initial email came from his personal email address, which I realised too late.
All of you who have been fleeced, pls PM me the name of the agency, maybe it is the same one as mine. Also, where can I get this insurance and what is the premium, roughly. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Steps you can take if you face non-payment | Mar 13, 2010 |
Hello, Stephanie
I agree with all my colleagues who have given suggestions of how you can screen for good clients. As for what to do about your present bad debt, there are a few things you can try, but you should also prepare yourself for the possibility that you are dealing with a truly bad apple and this might be one job you have to write off as uncollectible.
1. You can send a polite, professional reminder letter along the lines of: "In reviewing my books, I see that... See more Hello, Stephanie
I agree with all my colleagues who have given suggestions of how you can screen for good clients. As for what to do about your present bad debt, there are a few things you can try, but you should also prepare yourself for the possibility that you are dealing with a truly bad apple and this might be one job you have to write off as uncollectible.
1. You can send a polite, professional reminder letter along the lines of: "In reviewing my books, I see that payment for Invoice XX dated XX/XX/XXXX has not yet been received (or is XX days past due). Kindly confirm whether payment was sent or when it can be expected." Never send a rude or angry one. You don't want to stoop to their level. You always want to remain a professional.
2. If a series of polite reminders don't work (if you've got good clients, they will), then try embarrassment. If the client is registered with a translators association that requires its members to uphold a certain code of ethics, your next polite reminder can express regret that you are left no recourse but to report the agency's uncooperative behavior to the association. If they claim to be a member of their local equivalent of a Better Business Bureau (what we have in the United States), you can state regret that you have no recourse but to file a claim there. Another way to embarrass them is to file a poor Blue Board rating; this sometimes works, especially since I believe a low rating also comes to the attention of ProZ support and sometimes they weigh in with a reproach to the client.
3. In the United States, any person who has a grievance of nonpayment against an individual or entity also located in the United States can resort to filing a claim in Small Claims court. (The limit was $3,000 last I checked. It may be higher now.) The parties are encouraged to settle in mediation. Whether they settle in mediation or go before a judge for his ruling, winning a promise to pay and getting paid are still separate things. The one time I did this (it did not concern a translation client), I had to do all sorts of detective work to identify bank accounts and have them frozen until the debt to me was paid. Don't "go there" unless it's really meaningful to you. Unless you can come out ahead, you end up giving the client more of your time for free. You're better off using the time to cultivate a new, paying client.
Finally, if you are just building your experience and portfolio and you do not get paid, one way to swallow it is to chalk it up to your education. You got the chance to do some translating, and you got to sharpen your client relations skills. And you know never to repeat any of the mistakes you might have made in accepting the bad client in the first place.
I would add that while most bad customers do present with all the signs other colleagues have described on this thread, you can still get taken by someone who is really out to take advantage. The worst case I've experienced involved someone who was registered with ProZ, had a bricks-and-mortar address and contact information, a tax ID number, was not over-eager for my services, issued a PO promptly, and was very professional in his communication before and during the job. He hooked me because of this and because he offered a rate that was good (not too good, just better than most and which seemed to reflect a respect for his translators). This client did not have a BB history, but he had no bad history anyplace else. That was my mistake. He now has a BB history since all of us who responded to his job posting and provided services to him found we had been scammed. He now has something like six 1s in his LWA. Turns out his name is fake, his address and phone were borrowed from a building that houses a number of translation agencies, and his SRI (French tax ID) was not fake but lifted from another translator (who, rightly or wrongly, disavows knowledge of him, although she herself has a doubtful BB rating). The only thing I did wrong in that case was not insist on a BB history for him. So, choose carefully, don't say yes to everyone who seems to want your services, always look a gift horse in the mouth, know that you are taking a risk if you accept work from someone who does not meet all the criteria the folk in this thread have listed for you, and if you get a bad client, take reasonable action, always conducting yourself professionally, and if you still end up not being paid, take it in stride. Even bricks and mortar businesses and corporations get taken sometimes. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that that's life.
Hopefully, this thread will make navigation a little easier for you as you go forward!
Best,
Debrah ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 12:24
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Accept some minimal business risk | Mar 13, 2010 |
David Wright wrote:
Obviously life is more difficult for a beginner hoping to get work, but I still woudl receommend not taking work from sources you don't know.
I accept that what you say makes perfect sense - if, and only if, you already have a regular client base. For those who don't, it simply doesn't apply.
I think you have to accept a certain amount of business risk, minimised by doing as many checks as possible: obviously, check the Blue Board and the equivalent on other sites; check their own website; Google them; check the company register in their country if you can (it's online in France); check their address in the phone book; maybe ring them to make sure the person who answers is from said company; ...
It would be great to ask for money up front from new clients (and from old ones, come to that!) but that's not normal business practice in B2B dealings. If you deal with private citizens (as I do for CVs) then it works fine.
I would be very cagey about accepting 20,000 words from an unknown source, even if they did have a good BB record, but I'd do all the above checks then take a chance for a 50€ job - my experience is that MOST businesses are legit. I thought I'd lost a whole 15€ last year when a new client didn't reply to email reminders, but when I sent a final demand by post the money was in the bank by return - and not just 15€, but 25€!
| | | | | 2 more points | Mar 13, 2010 |
I only had 2 bad clients till now, (both refusing to pay amounts around 300 euros, they knew that I wouldn't suit them for that amout).
When I was negociating the order with the 2nd agency, I noticed they had no signature, nothing, and sometimes they wrote whole mails in capital letters, and used no opening or closing forms for their mails, so their mails looked extremely unprofessional.
*So beware of unprofessionally written mails*
David Wright spoke about a lega... See more I only had 2 bad clients till now, (both refusing to pay amounts around 300 euros, they knew that I wouldn't suit them for that amout).
When I was negociating the order with the 2nd agency, I noticed they had no signature, nothing, and sometimes they wrote whole mails in capital letters, and used no opening or closing forms for their mails, so their mails looked extremely unprofessional.
*So beware of unprofessionally written mails*
David Wright spoke about a legal insurance in case a client doesn't pay. I suggest he checks his insurance policy once again: I also have one, and I thought it meant the insurance company would pay me the translation /invoice amount if my client refuses to.
But it is not the case. The insurance only pays for law suits after it has been confirmed by way of law that you are entitled to suit the client. And no matter what, YOU have to bear the lawyer costs in advance, and (depending on your own insurance policy), you allways have to bear a certain amount yourself, (generally in Germany betw. 150 and 1.000 euros).
I had a very long fight with my insurance, and in the end I cancelled it.
*So don't take a legal insurance for granted, it won't protect you against bad clients, and the suits are long and difficult and extremely time-costing* ▲ Collapse
| | | | | If you have difficulties beeing paid | Mar 13, 2010 |
- first send 2 or 3 reminders (many pay late but DO pay )
(if the invoice has been due for several weeks and / or the client does not answer your reminders, of course, do NOT accept further jobs from them)
- if it is an agency, threaten with a consequent commentary on ther Blue Board, and threaten to inform the end client (the words "inform the end client" are magical somehow
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