| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | An outsourcer requesting refund for a delivered job Thread poster: Yasutomo Kanazawa
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Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 20:34
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
@Nicole
I don't know about attachments disappearing in cyberspace when using ComCast, but the client clearly said that he didn't receive my translation NOR my email(s). So it seems that it's not only the problem of attachments disappearing in thin air, but a more serious issue. And thanks for sharing the info.
All emails got lost, not the attachments only, and they didn't bounce either.
Have you considered taking a simple screen shot of your (delivery) email with the attachment icon shown and sending it to your client as a proof of delivery? I would prefer this way of eliminating misunderstandings, rather than speculating about the customer's integrity. After all, you did everything right, yet it is your reputation that is at stake.
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I've experienced similar rejections from clients that use anti-spam services.
Why is a message flagged as spam? It can be as simple as a dollar sign on the subject line, the absence of text in the body of the message, an attached JPG file, certain trigger-words like "offer" and "buy," etc. However, most of the time is because you have been assigned a dynamic IP address that has previously been used for spamming.
Nowadays anti-spam services, instead of blocking that sin... See more I've experienced similar rejections from clients that use anti-spam services.
Why is a message flagged as spam? It can be as simple as a dollar sign on the subject line, the absence of text in the body of the message, an attached JPG file, certain trigger-words like "offer" and "buy," etc. However, most of the time is because you have been assigned a dynamic IP address that has previously been used for spamming.
Nowadays anti-spam services, instead of blocking that single IP address, block the mail server wherefrom the message originates. So, when you send mail through your IP provider, if it's dispatched from a blacklisted mail server, it will be rejected and you have no control over this. The idea is that if they block whole mail servers, they are targeting the guilty party—even though messages of many users will be bounced back—, the users will complain and the provider will combat spamming. I've never seen it work as advertised, so the next time your message is rejected, use a free gmail or hotmail email account to send the files. You can access these accounts (called "POP" or "POP3") directly from your email program.
Regards,
Daniel ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 05:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| I'm afraid the onus is on you to prove delivery | Aug 20, 2010 |
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
@Segei
That's what my colleague told me. She said that the outsourcer hasn't provided any proof that he didn't receive my translation, while on the otherhand, I submitted proof that I sent him the translation by deadline. I haven't thought of that, and your opinion and hers rang a bell.
Your "proof" is no proof at all. Even if your proof is proof of something, it is merely proof that you had sent the e-mail, and not proof that the client had received the e-mail. Remember, e-mail is not 100% reliable.
When your client told you the first time that he had not received the translation, did it not occur to you that resending the translation through the exact same channel might result in the exact same outcome, i.e. that he wouldn't receive the translation the second time either?
Besides, how on earth can one prove that one did NOT receive something?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 05:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I wrote him back that I did indeed send the translation yesterday, by using the "Forward" button with his email address in the address line so that the attached files would remain as they are.
Since then, he hasn't replied, so I thought everything was ok.
This is a poor assumption. One of your e-mails haven't arrived at this client already, so what you should have done was to follow up actively to find out whether everyone was indeed okay. If the client doesn't in some way confirm that he had received the file, then you can't be 100% sure that he did receive it.
I told him that if he hadn't received the translation, he could have contacted me through Proz or other translation site(s) where my name appears, but seems like he hasn't done that.
Not everyone is aware of the facilities that ProZ.com offers with regard to contacting members. Besides, if your e-mail didn't work (and if this was the client's assumption) then contacting you via the ProZ.com system would not have worked either because the notification of a private message awaiting comes via... via... yes, can you guess? Via e-mail!
He's also telling me that if I don't return his money, he will file a complaint to Paypal and other translation posts and blogs such as XXX and ProZ.
I'd be a bit concerned about the PayPal complaint. The same applies to anyone who sells products via PayPal and then the product is not delivered. This is one reason why I don't accept payment by credit card, because with a credit card the client can charge back his payment even after he's received the product and he's merely not happy with it. I'm not sure if PayPal allows automated charge-backs, but a complaint may be something you should be worried about.
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Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:34
English to Latvian
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| Always check your spam folder | Aug 20, 2010 |
My first thought was exactly that the client did not receive your e-mail because it was flagged as a spam. I would still expect that the client would try to reach me by phone before giving this job to another translator. It works both ways though. Since you received a message from the client with an indication of malfunctioning e-mail I would try to contact him through alternative channels.
My suggestion would be ascertain what exactly went wrong and if it was indeed an e-mail issue... See more My first thought was exactly that the client did not receive your e-mail because it was flagged as a spam. I would still expect that the client would try to reach me by phone before giving this job to another translator. It works both ways though. Since you received a message from the client with an indication of malfunctioning e-mail I would try to contact him through alternative channels.
My suggestion would be ascertain what exactly went wrong and if it was indeed an e-mail issue beyond your or client's control, I would offer to refund 50% of the payment as you have shared responsibility for making sure that the communication works.
I use gmail with my personal domain and its spam filtering is the best on the market. But occasionally false negatives happen so it is a good habit to check the spam folder once in a while. Especially if you do not receive a message you have been expecting. I hadn't checked mine for several months (it is hard when you have >1000 spam messages) and one client was desperately trying to contact me with a bigger job. Not receiving any answer after several attempts she finally sent me a message from a different server and I received it. I was glad that she had the smarts to do this as I got the job. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Yasutomo Kanazawa
Japan
Local time: 12:34
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Yes, that's one good method | Aug 20, 2010 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
In cases such as this, when you *cannot* get confirmation that your email + job was received, why not use the telephone? It can't be that expensive and at least, one supposes, you can actually talk to a human being and sort the problem out before it becomes an "issue". Telephone expenses are tax-deductible, surely? (I'm assuming that one wouldn't accept work - especially for a somewhat dubious client - without having a contact telephone number.
Anyway, I'm glad you've resolved the problem now.
Best wishes,
Jenny
I had his phone number, but it never occurred to me calling him if he really did receive my translation, since it was 2 weeks later that I found out that he still hadn't received my forwarded message. I assumed the problem was solved when he sent me his first email telling me that he hadn't received the translation from me.
| | | | Yasutomo Kanazawa
Japan
Local time: 12:34
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Yes, you're right | Aug 20, 2010 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
@Nicole
I don't know about attachments disappearing in cyberspace when using ComCast, but the client clearly said that he didn't receive my translation NOR my email(s). So it seems that it's not only the problem of attachments disappearing in thin air, but a more serious issue. And thanks for sharing the info.
All emails got lost, not the attachments only, and they didn't bounce either. Have you considered taking a simple screen shot of your (delivery) email with the attachment icon shown and sending it to your client as a proof of delivery? I would prefer this way of eliminating misunderstandings, rather than speculating about the customer's integrity. After all, you did everything right, yet it is your reputation that is at stake.
I know that Internet connections are not perfect, and to be honest with you, I rarely take screenshots, since this kind of thing never happened to me before. And I know that my reputation is at stake, and since we've reached to an agreement that he would pay me after I deliver the job from next time on, I've also wrote him asking to cancel the billing to my Paypal account.
| | | | Yasutomo Kanazawa
Japan
Local time: 12:34
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote: Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I wrote him back that I did indeed send the translation yesterday, by using the "Forward" button with his email address in the address line so that the attached files would remain as they are.
Since then, he hasn't replied, so I thought everything was ok. This is a poor assumption. One of your e-mails haven't arrived at this client already, so what you should have done was to follow up actively to find out whether everyone was indeed okay. If the client doesn't in some way confirm that he had received the file, then you can't be 100% sure that he did receive it. I told him that if he hadn't received the translation, he could have contacted me through Proz or other translation site(s) where my name appears, but seems like he hasn't done that. Not everyone is aware of the facilities that ProZ.com offers with regard to contacting members. Besides, if your e-mail didn't work (and if this was the client's assumption) then contacting you via the ProZ.com system would not have worked either because the notification of a private message awaiting comes via... via... yes, can you guess? Via e-mail! He's also telling me that if I don't return his money, he will file a complaint to Paypal and other translation posts and blogs such as XXX and ProZ. I'd be a bit concerned about the PayPal complaint. The same applies to anyone who sells products via PayPal and then the product is not delivered. This is one reason why I don't accept payment by credit card, because with a credit card the client can charge back his payment even after he's received the product and he's merely not happy with it. I'm not sure if PayPal allows automated charge-backs, but a complaint may be something you should be worried about.
Thank you Samuel, for your detailed comments. Maybe you're right about my poor assumption. Like I wrote above as a reply to Nicole, this kind of thing never happened to me before, and since two weeks have elapsed, I assumed everything was okay.
Like some people including you pointed out, I am a bit worried about my Paypal account. As to your doubts about credit card payment, yes, there are some people who pay by e-check or use their plastics to pay via Paypal, which annoys me a bit, since Paypal spends a few days verifying the sender, and takes some time for my money to reach my account. I'm not quite sure about Paypal allowing automated charge-backs. Maybe they let you do that, but I am always on the side of receiving money, and never had the chance to buy something using Paypal.
As to your suggestion of using Prozcom's facilities, there might be a good chance of getting in touch with the person you want to, since that person might use a different email account registered on Proz, or even someone's different email account within the same company if his/her company is on the BlueBoard. I know that emails may not be perfect, but at least if you send to three different addresses, one might get through properly.
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