Sarah McDowell Jan 12, 2014:

OK, Brian, I understand your point However, KudoZ questions is not the place to do this because the point of Kudoz is to come up with the best answer in the translation of a particularly difficult word within a SPECIFIC phrase. If you receive, say, 30 suggestions, how would you select the best one?

BrianHayden (asker) Jan 12, 2014:

English probably uses dozens, maybe even hundreds of different methods– certain phrases, certain individual words, certain grammatical constructions – to express the same thing that Russian does using ведь, уж, and же, but English nevertheless has finite options. I for one don’t see the harm in pointing out some of those options – as a matter of fact, I wanted to see as many suggestions as possible, so that I could broaden the way I conceived possible translations of ведь, уж, and же. That wouldn’t have turned me into a robot, nor would it have lobotomized me.

BrianHayden (asker) Jan 12, 2014:

This is somewhat predictable, but I stand with Katerina on this one. I explicitly stated (note well, Sarah) that “it’s always best to judge on a case-by-case basis when translating particles like these”; there are no one-size-fits-all solutions to any translation problem, and I know that. Surely any person who has progressed with Russian to the point that they are even thinking about how to translate emphatic particles has the cognitive elasticity to realize that these particles are translated different ways in different contexts. Just because they are translated in different ways in different contexts does not mean that it’s “silly” to determine what exactly some of those ways are.

Natalia Volkova Jan 12, 2014:

I agree with Misha: there is nothing to discuss here. At least it`s not a Pro-question!

The Misha Jan 12, 2014:

Please do not throw the book at us! In the best traditions of "Svobodu Luisu Korvalanu" and without prejudice to my personal disagreement with Katerina on this issue, I strongly object to any attempts to resolve this issue by any administrative measures whatsoever. Whatever my personal stance on the issue, this is in fact a perfectly valid and stimulating discussion - far more so than, say, requests for translations of YUIPIBNL of WQGCDJYVJ or seeking of third party validation for some half-baked non-native verbiage. This is a perfectly valid theoretical issue we are debating here, and it is really immaterial whether it involves one term or several. I would also take the liberty of reminding everyone involved that the truth is not really affected by whether it is believed by the majority, whoever it was who said that.

katerina turevich Jan 12, 2014:

(By the way, there are fourteen (possibly 15, depending on how you look at it) emphatic constructions used in the above paragraph.
Now take a look at this: http://finnugor.arts.unideb.hu/fud/fud20cikkek/13_pitkasalo.... . Page 236.

katerina turevich Jan 12, 2014:

-1 If it's against the rules, moderators ? OK guys!
I will remove my answer, if the common consensus here is one of ignoring the fact that sometimes it is indeed useful to have a personal stock of ideas and words, which can be used to convey the meaning of words in another language. No one here is talking about creating any CAT tool, but don’t we all use (sometimes non=conventional) databases available on the net to find just the right word? Forget the net, my favorite dictionary before digital age was a Rodale Synonym Finder. I have all the relevant Oxford’s, but it was a Rodale that became instrumental for the final draft. Literary translations only, of course. I used it for my own writing too. So when someone mentions creating a list of words, I don’t get all in a huff about the implication of not being a pro on the part of the asker. On the opposite, I greatly appreciate the endeavor. I mean, there are enough resources on emphatic synonyms in English. Blogs, dictionaries, etc. There are no, as far as I know, resources on the parallels between Russian and English emphatic phrases. Why do slang dictionaries have the green light, and a collection like this is so vehemently opposed? But ok, I will remove my answer,

Sarah McDowell Jan 12, 2014:

I don't see the point of this question Without posting a specific sentence with these words, it is just impossible for us to make any suggestions. Honestly, I find the idea of coming up with a "universal, one-size-fits-all" translation for these terms to be counterproductive. They are often not translated or the English sentence is rephrased to account for their effect in the Russian sentence. Often we use intonation to express the emphasis which Russians use уж or же.

Ведь is often "you see" if it's used in a person's speech.

Actually, the idea of inserting "ready-made" solutions for these terms in a CAT tool termbase is just silly.

katerina turevich Jan 12, 2014:

Brian, You are welcome. Multitran is indeed a funny thing.

katerina turevich Jan 12, 2014:

You bet, Misha Accidentally, my favorite hang out checking out all my brilliant ideas, next to the mentioned milk and cookies, is wordreference. Especially the discussions or adding entries to dictionaries
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1656537
Good nght!

The Misha Jan 12, 2014:

Brian, I hear your pain. I do not translate fiction for more reasons than one but I write my own and I will only be too happy to sign under each and every one of your words here. I am just trying to point out that unfortunately there are no "canned" solutions here, and there simply cannot be any. It's very much like asking for ready-made ways of translating "just" or "yet" into Russian. I mean, sure, the dictionary gives you a page or more for each, but all of it is pretty much useless if you disregard specific usage, which is just that - sentence specific. Whether we like it or not, it's not like "Vam khochetsya pesen - ikh yest' u menya!" It's more like "You want some translations? There ain't any to give." Cheers.

The Misha Jan 12, 2014:

Katerina, No spite whatsoever here. I am an amiable enough fellow, if a bit of a grump (I am old enough, I guess, and thus feeling entitled:). Still, how about a little consistency - it's either "Go, Thefreedictionary (or whatever), Go!" or "Thefreedictionary, Go Home," not both. You fit that "no doubt" of yours better than I expected, I have to give you that, but the question remains: why bother fitting that saddle on a cow at all, to borrow an idiom from Russian? How about we ask Brian, who seems to be a native speaker here, if he would really want to translate the sentence this way, or whether the translation seems natural enough to him? Peace, milk and cookies!:) And plenty of cheap scotch too!

BrianHayden (asker) Jan 12, 2014:

Misha -- I see where you're coming from, and only disagree with some of what you're saying. I realize that flow and style are essential in translation, especially in literary translation, and that a good feel for prose is one of the most important skills a translator can have. Most of the grammatical peculiarities to be found in Russian -- inverted word order, particles like these, perfective verbal adverbs -- are best handled by gut-feeling. I've already realized that. However, keeping a few patterns or phrases in mind doesn't hurt, esp. if you've read the sentence a dozen times, understand it but yet you've still hit on nothing in English.

BrianHayden (asker) Jan 12, 2014:

Katerina, thanks for mentioning Multitran. I already knew about it, but for some reason I didn't think of putting it to work on this problem.

The Misha Jan 11, 2014:

Um... And it also wouldn't hurt if you posted a little more info about yourself in your profile. This way quite a few of us here would be much more enthusiastic about answering your questions and trying to help. And no, that's not your name, address, SSN and bank account number that I am talking about. I, for one, am a sucker to know where people are located generally, what they do, what kind of education they have and what they want to do with themselves. That kind of things. Just saying.

The Misha Jan 11, 2014:

+2 Not to rain on your parade, but this here is a total fool's errand. Just like Mark and the others, I wouldn't even bother guessing without seeing a specific sentence. There just isn't a universal solution here, let alone "a dozen or so". It is my understanding that you are trying to learn how to do literary translation here, right? Well, use your own sense of style as a native speaker, especially where proper usage is concerned. Hint: it doesn't really matter what the original says. If it doesn't "flow" in the target language you have to rephrase - until it does. Otherwise no one is going to bother reading it, let alone paying for the privilege.

katerina turevich Jan 11, 2014:

I think it's a great idea for a resource on ëmphatic constructions. Multitran, for instance, gives a whole bunch of words for each one of the above. Each on its own, and each with a quite a few other meanings attached to it. Exclamation marks apart, are there words or set phrases in English that will strengthen the rest of a sentence, and how many?

Alla_K Jan 11, 2014:

I know. I have given a kind of universal solution Just put an exclamation sign at the end if you can`t think of anything. Put two or three exclamation signs if there is already one in the source. Seriously.

BrianHayden (asker) Jan 11, 2014:

I'm not looking for a single solution at all. What I'm actually looking for is a dozen or so translations to keep in reserve if I can't think of anything.

Alla_K Jan 11, 2014:

же=! (agressively). ведь, уж - less aggressively Я же говорил тебе. = I have told you! "Я ведь говорил тебе" - is basically the same but less aggressively.

Mark Berelekhis Jan 11, 2014:

+1 I wouldn't even bother trying to find a one-size-fits-all solution.

Rocketman Jan 11, 2014:

I agree with "case-by-case basis" part, you'll never find a turnkey solution that would fit any context.