Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2019:

... I said I think it is OK to post that link because it's not the newspaper article in which Jonathan's sentence can be found and it doesn't mention the company selling these mattresses but only its supplier.

Spicing up a post with a complaint about ethical transgressions even though it is clear that there are none, plus labelling that complaint as "important," is not only ridiculous but frankly an underhanded way of distracting from the lack of arguments in favor of fibers.

Again, Naturhaar is not used for plants and we do have the word Faser in German, so there is no need to obfuscate the issue: https://www.naturmittelversand.de/flor-naturhaarbetten/natur...

We're here to debate questions on linguistic grounds. I'll leave the mudslinging to others on this forum.

Still, we can discuss the Auflagen bit (in a respectful tone). Similar to what Phil said, I'd rather use padding then. The padding can be found between the mattress and cover, though "versteppt" (as I think this mattress is) means the Auflage is an integral part of the cover. And yet, I'd still be hesitant to use organic wool cover, since the wool is at the top and bottom only. Also, it's wool.

Inter-Tra Nov 17, 2019:

Björn A couple of important points: 1. "I think is OK". In my personal opinion due to privacy and obviuos ethical reasons is NOT OK at all to post the text link on behalf of the asker/colleague. Permission was not asked. It will be his choice to explain the context and eventually to post the link. 2. In addition, this is NOT the article I was referring to. Infact, the producer is another company. Therefore, I leave it to the asker, who knows for sure better than us what we are talking about. Greet you all.

Jennifer Caisley Nov 17, 2019:

contd Incidentally, your comment "toppers and covers" seems to suggest that they're the same thing - in English, they're very different, with a "topper" being a squishy thin mattress that you put on top of the mattress for extra padding, and a "cover" being almost like a thin sheet (whether waterproof, bed-bug-proof, or whatever).

I can imagine that this is something with some regional variation too, though, and I'm not sure where you're based in the English-speaking world geographically (I know from my own experience that American bedding is very different from that in the UK, both re. terminology and the actual items of bedding)!

I'm aware there's a risk of going round in circles here, so I'm signing off for the day - a lovely Sunday to all!

Jennifer Caisley Nov 17, 2019:

Just briefly... because it is Sunday morning! Thanks for all the links, Björn - that supports my feeling that "Haar" here refers to something of animal, not plant, origin (although I do recall a "Haargras" from a botany translation once, that's unlikely to be the substance at play here!) - and, most importantly, that the distinction between the two can't really be elided.

@Francesca

I don't doubt the veracity of the definition of natural fibres - what I'm saying is that here, as with so many terms, the definition of the term (fibres from any natural source) and how it's used in practice (generally, fibres from a plant source) don't fully align, at least in my experience.

An example that popped into my mind when dishing up breakfast this morning is the word "juice" - almost any dictionary will tell you that this is liquid squeezed from fruit. In the area that I grew up (North Yorkshire), and much of the North of England, though, "juice" is what the rest of the UK calls "squash" or "cordial" (a syrup to dilute). This is obviously a question of dialect, so it's a rather different kettle of fish, but it does illustrate the slight danger of relying overly on definitions instead of familiarity with current usage in practice.

Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2019:

What you're trying to translate: "Ohne zusätzliche chemikalische Ausrüstungen sorgen Naturfasern wie Baumwolle und Schurwolle durch ihren natürlichen Feuchtigkeitshaushalt für spannungsfreies Schlafen."

What we actually need a translation for can be found on the same page: "Baumwolle, Naturlatex und Leinen werden pflanzlich, Schurwolle und Naturhaare tierisch gewonnen, ohne Boden oder Tiere zu schädigen."

You may get away with using Haare in reference to cotton, but it doesn't work with several other types of Pflanzenfasern (and GNS would simply say Bio-Baumwolle or the like).

Fibres/fibers just isn't an answer to the Q; animal fibers could work, but then again, it's pretty clear that we're only talking about wool, especially swisswool. They have a whole marketing campaign centered around this, I'd say:
https://swisswool.ch/schweizer-wolle-in-matratze-sorgt-bei-b...

As said, how to translate Auflage may be the bigger problem.

Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2019:

Not okay "I (found and) read the article of the company producing the mentioned toppers and there was NO reference whatsoever to any animal."

The author of that article (saw it, too) mentions the company name. Not that difficult to find (and I think OK to post): https://bico.ch/matratzen/

There's a Topper Master (Naturlatex), a Topper Clima (Schweizer Schafschurwolle), and a Topper Vita (some combination of wool and artificially produced materials).

The author even says which line of products this is. The mattress itself is made of Lyocell and polyester(!); only the Auflage is Schafschurwolle.

The bigger problem may be that this Auflage seems to be integrated [edited b/c I accidentally wrote "doesn't seem"] with the mattress. Still, it's not a cover in the traditional sense (i.e., to protect the mattress from dirt or such).

As for "I do believe it is also better to keep 'natural fibers'," apparently I haven't made myself clear enough either. Here's an example: https://schlafkampagne.de/betten/naturbettwaren.php

[...]

Inter-Tra Nov 17, 2019:

Hallo to everyone, Jennifer I agree with you, it seems that the most wide terms are toppers and covers. Natural fibres: As I tried, apparently not successfully, to get it through in the previous entry, in English natural fibers include plants, animals and minerals. I deliberatly kept the umbrella term because I (found and) read the article of the company producing the mentioned toppers and there was NO reference whatsoever to any animal. From a marketing POV I do believe it is also better to keep 'natural fibers'. In addition, fibers like: wool, silk, angora, and mohair are from animals! See link/article below, section "Examples of Natural Fibers - Natural fibers come from many sources. These sources can include plants, animals, and minerals.

We are probably most familiar with plant and animal fibers from a consumer standpoint. Common natural fibers sourced from the plant kingdom include cotton, flax, hemp, bamboo, sisal, and jute. Their main component is cellulose. From animals, we get popular fibers like wool, silk, angora, and mohair."
https://www.barnhardtcotton.net/blog/what-is-a-natural-fiber...

Björn Vrooman Nov 16, 2019:

[...]

In short, there is nothing wrong with wool. You could even use it for camel hair:
"The fine, shorter fibre of the insulating undercoat, 1.5–5 inches (4–13 cm) long, is the product generally called camel hair, or camel hair wool."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/camel-hair

Now, what you'e trying to do is turn Naturhaar into Naturfaser, which means you go one category higher. It's like saying you're selling animal-based products instead of ivory (whether you should sell this at all is not the point). That's neither wanted nor needed.

In fact, the link you posted reads: "Produkt: deutsches Qualitätsprodukt aus eigener Herstellung 100% Schurwolle kuschelig warm..."

Please keep in mind that this is about selling to consumers. Wool is simply the more appropriate answer, in my opinion. Hope that meets with Phil's approval =)

Best

Björn Vrooman Nov 16, 2019:

@Jennifer
Thanks, same to you! Let's hope so; the questions posted in the last few days are knotty enough =)

@Francesca
Not sure what you're trying to get at.

Yes, it could be a Tierfaser, or even Schaf(s)faser. But as Jennifer so aptly explained, if you use Naturfaser, you usually do so to stress that they're not synthetic. That's also true in German: "Als Naturfasern werden alle Fasern natürlichen Ursprungs bezeichnet, die – in Abgrenzung zu Chemiefasern – ohne synthetische Prozesse direkt weiter verarbeitet werden können."
https://www.hessnatur.com/magazin/textillexikon/naturfasern

Moreover, the Q was not about Faser but about Naturhaar:
"Wolle, das sind genau genommen, alle spinnfähigen Haare von Säugetieren wie zum Beispiel Kamelhaar, Ziegenhaar oder Schafshaar. Die in unseren Breitengraden am häufigsten verarbeitete Wolle stammt vom Schaf. Das Haarkleid der Schafe teilt sich in das gröbere Deckhaar und das feinere Unter- oder Flaumhaar."
https://www.mona.de/magazin/mode/lieblingsmaterial-wolle

[...]

Jennifer Caisley Nov 16, 2019:

@Francesca Thanks for the link to an example mattress topper - that's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of (although the type that sprang to mind immediately was with horsehair filling, not wool topping, although either are perfectly possible!)

Re natural fibres etc - you're absolutely right with your definition that animal wool/hair is technically a natural fibre. However, in my view, the term "natural fibres" is, in practice, most commonly used to refer to plant-derived fibres - or at least, that's how it's used in my corner of the UK :)

Inter-Tra Nov 16, 2019:

Natural fibres are obtained from natural sources such as animals and plants, however they can classified into 2 categories: natural & synthetic

Inter-Tra Nov 16, 2019:

Naturfasern sind alle Fasern, die von natürlichen Quellen wie Pflanzen, Tieren oder Mineralien

Inter-Tra Nov 16, 2019:

Link & Photos Matratzenauflage Unterbett "100% SCHURWOLLE NATURHAAR" Größe 60 x 120 cm, Material unversteppt. Please, look at the 4 photos (left corner)
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01B81PFWW?tag=matratzenwe-21&linkC...

Jennifer Caisley Nov 16, 2019:

Glad you agree, Björn - I'd never really thought about the innards of mattresses and the like before, but the manufacturers clearly put all kinds of things in there! (And I completely agree re. the plant/animal fibres distinction)

Enjoy the rest of your Saturday (hopefully there'll be fewer knotty KudoZ questions coming in for the rest of the day!) :)

Björn Vrooman Nov 16, 2019:

Thanks! Almost exactly what I thought.

Actually, you'd be getting two agreements if the American half of this household were registered on ProZ.

When I hear someone say natural fibres/fibers, I think of plant fibers. They make a distinction between animal fibres and plant fibres at https://johnryanbydesign.co.uk/understanding-beds/all-about-...

However, I also think it's too general. Moreover, "Haar" is usually not a word you'd use for plant fibres (Fasern) in German, making a backtranslation unnecessarily difficult.

Best wishes

Jennifer Caisley Nov 16, 2019:

Fibres etc. @Björn kindly invited me to pop back over on this fibres/hair etc. discussion, so here's my two pennies' (or, for our US friends, cents') worth.

As the toppers are truly stuffed with "Haar" (whether "Schaafshair" [wool] or, as in my link, "Pfedehaar" [horse hair]), I think the sense of hair/wool, depending on the specific topper in question, really needs to be included.

Incidentally, to me, "natural fibres" means something quite specific, in a textile context. To my ear, "natural fibres" (cotton, linen etc.) are the opposite of "synthetic fibres" (polyester etc.), generally in terms of materials/fabrics rather than stuffing/filling.

While hair/wool is a natural fibre, simply erasing the difference between the two seems to be an excessive (and not wholly permissible) generalisation to me.

Björn Vrooman Nov 15, 2019:

PS It says "System" because it's a combination of mattress and topper/pad. Similar to:
"Next, we tried upgrading our thin mattress with topper combo to a residential mattress."
https://rvtofreedom.com/rv-mattress-replacement-discount-cod...

Or:
"Our mattress and pad set are two pieces placed together in a zippered allergy free cover."
http://www.foam-mattress.com/mattress.htm

Same with Zwei-Matratzensysteme:
https://www.badboy.ca/mattresses/mattress-sets/double-mattre...

Can also be used to refer to some kind of modular system, which means part of the mattress can be replaced without having to throw away the entire mattress:
https://das-nachtlager.de/matratzen/vorteile.html

Maybe some people use it for a simple mattress, though they shouldn't.

Best wishes

Björn Vrooman Nov 15, 2019:

Hello Phil I think Jennifer is on the right track, as are you; Naturhaar, in this case, is Schafshaar, so I guess natural wool or the like: https://www.urbanwool.co.uk/collections/mattress-toppers

Best wishes

philgoddard Nov 15, 2019:

I looked up this "system" to find out what it was, and it appears simply to be a fancy word for mattress. Since the "Auflagen" are washable, they must be detachable, which implies that they may be mattress covers or pads. But I'm not sure why they're made of "Naturhaar".