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green monster of right and wrong

French translation: Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant de l'innocent

20:07 Dec 8, 2023
English to French translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature
English term or phrase: green monster of right and wrong
Hello everyone,

From the 1964 movie Mission to Venice.

Context: A woman asked Michael, the protagonist, to help her find her missing husband Paul Trégard. She talked to Michael, Michael promised to help her and then she left. Caesar, Michael's servant disapproves Michael's wish to help her. He says that the woman is a Mata Hari and he saw how she was wrapping him around her finger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjc3j6EIBOI&t=533s

The scene in question begins at 8.46

César: But even Colonel Vallier himself is positive that Trégard was a... (Caesar means that, according to Colonel Vallier, Trégard is a traitor).

Michael: And if he's innocent? What if she's right and they are wrong? ("they" refers to the Secret Service of which Colonel Vallier is the head).

César: Oh, yes, the green monster of right and wrong leers while laughing at the innocent. Victor Hugo.

Michael: Quotation for quotation. When in doubt don't stay out. That's my father.

The sentence "The green monster of right and wrong leers while laughing at the innocent" is the English translation of some sentence in French. According to César it's a quote from Victor Hugo.

The English sentence in question doesn't make sense to me. I've tried to ask native English speakers on several forums, but, unfortunately, they don't understand it either (probably because it's a not very good translation from French).

Because it's supposed to be a Victor Hugo quote, I've tried to find the original French sentence in Google by using search phases like -- "le monstre vert" Victor Hugo -- or "le diable vauvert" Victor Hugo --, but found absolutely nothing.

So could someone please tell me what (if it's not from Victor Hugo) could have been said in French in the scene in question?

Thank you.
Mikhail Korolev
Local time: 23:07
French translation:Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant de l'innocent
Explanation:
CL5 about the meaning.

I guess you need the meaning of this quotation, in order to translate it into Russian, so any comments about my modified translation into English are beside the point.

The French subtitle says:

Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant (se moque?) de l'innocent

Given that the movie was primarily French, I would think that the French subtitles are to be trusted as being "the original".

Looking at the context "le monstre vert" is in fact a personification for "l'écriture erronée". The green colour is supposed to make it more horrible.

"L'écriture erronée" being either a misinterpreted or misleading clue, or a false witness making someone innocent look culpable - some kind of falsehood.

This "green monster" is like a devil laughing at his own practical joke - mocking the falsely accused.

IOW "the horrible monster" has spread falsehood and is laughing at the innocent that got falsely accused.

If it's a quote from Victor Hugo, it's certainly not a literal one.

https://archive.org/search?query="monstre vert"&sin=TXT&page... No Victor Hugo anywhere to be found

That's the kind of quote more appropriate for "Der Proceß" by Franz Kafka.



170
00:13:27,648 --> 00:13:29,148
j'ai vu comment cette femme

171
00:13:29,148 --> 00:13:30,408
vous a embobiné.

172
00:13:30,408 --> 00:13:33,589
Ne t'en fais pas César.

173
00:13:33,589 --> 00:13:35,719
Mais le colonel a dit

174
00:13:35,719 --> 00:13:38,060
que Trégard était un traître.
Et s'il est innocent?

175
00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:40,010
Si elle a raison et qu'il a tort?

176
00:13:40,010 --> 00:13:42,380
"Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée

177
00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:44,330
se moquant de l'innocent".

178
00:13:44,330 --> 00:13:47,240
Victor Hugo.
Citation pour citation,

179
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,370
"dans le doute abstient toi".

180
00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:52,219
Et j'ajoute "au poker je paye toujours pour voir".

181
00:13:52,219 --> 00:13:55,849
Vous pourriez payer très cher pour voir.


https://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtitles/9335786/mission-t...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 9 hrs (2023-12-10 05:25:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The movie was made after the novel (in English) "Mission to Venice" by James Hadley Chase. But this Victor Hugo quote is nowhere to be found in the book. No mention of any "green devil" in the book either. Must have been added in the adaption for the movie, so "Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant (se moque?) de l'innocent" is definitely the "original".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 9 hrs (2023-12-10 05:45:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Voir Venise et crever (1963) André Versini

Réalisateur André Versini
Auteur de l'oeuvre originale James Hadley Chase
Dialoguiste Jacques Robert
Société de production Cocinor - Comptoir Cinématographique du Nord
Société de production Les Films Metzger et Woog
Société de production Les Films Marceau (Paris)
Société de production Adelphia Compagnia Cinematografica (Roma)
Société de production Filmes Cinematografica (Roma)
Société de production Eichberg-Film GmbH (Berlin)
Directeur de production Hugo Bénédek
Directeur de la photographie André Germain
Compositeur de la musique originale Alain Goraguer

http://cinema.encyclopedie.films.bifi.fr/index.php?pk=52749

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 17 hrs (2023-12-10 13:48:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@Bourth: you got a good point.

"written wrong" - a literal translation for an ST that does make perfect sense in the context i.e. "l'écriture erronée" - turned along the way into a phonetically similar "right and wrong" would explain how this puzzling EN version could come to pass.

The joys of "automated translation", or using translators who just want to get rid of the text as quickly as possible... saving 30 seconds to produce nonsense that takes (collectively) 30/300 hours to untangle.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 18 hrs (2023-12-10 14:21:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

you could also rephrase the idea behind

"le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant de l'innocent"

as

"the lying devil laughing at (/ mocking) the wrongly accused"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 18 hrs (2023-12-10 14:49:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Two points of method:
- it's got to make sense in the context / to fit in with the rest of the specific story - unless the ST is about someone's raving, it's A MUST;
- you got to make sure that you're dealing with "the source", not a mistranslation posing as "the original".
Selected response from:

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:07
Grading comment
Many thanks to everyone.
Thank you, Daryo.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant de l'innocent
Daryo
3 +1Le bras aveugle de la Justice frappe en se moquant des innocents.
Nadine BECUWE
3le monstre vert du bien et du mal
Bourth
Summary of reference entries provided
Le monstre vert
ormiston

Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Le bras aveugle de la Justice frappe en se moquant des innocents.


Explanation:
Je pense qu’il s’agit plus d’une référence aux combats de Victor Hugo qu’une citation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 heures (2023-12-09 13:43:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

De l’inspiration ici :

http://groupugo.div.jussieu.fr/groupugo/13-12-14chenet.htm

« Comment se construit la vérité »


    https://books.openedition.org/puse/3340?lang=fr
Nadine BECUWE
France
Local time: 22:07
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
Notes to answerer
Asker: Merci, Nadine.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Emmanuella: Bras aveugle ?
59 mins
agree  Tomasso: Double reference, to the physical green Naive monster Quasimodo, and the long imparcial long arm of justice, the law. Justice is BLIND, aveugle.
1 day 4 hrs
neutral  ormiston: Bras aveugle ?
1 day 21 hrs
neutral  Daryo: How would that fit into a story about a spy that could have been falsely accused??? Were do you see "Le bras aveugle de la Justice" in the specific story this specific question is about? All I can see is a melee of spies, no judges nowhere.
2 days 14 mins
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1 day 3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
le monstre vert du bien et du mal


Explanation:
(Posted as an Answer as much as anything because this - drafted in Word - is probably over the content limits of the other boxes)

The 'green monster' might be something of a red herring. I can certainly see the 'monster of right and wrong' and how it might mock the innocent, for we see it every day: should you punish someone (innocent) who uses excessive force in self defence and kills an assailant, someone who places a trap in their home that injures a burglar, a policeman at the wheel of a car that collides with a 17-year-old fleeing on a scooter ... Is justice by the books always right, or might it be morally wrong? 'Green' might just be for added effect, it might mean that the monster of right and wrong is young, inexperienced, unable to make the right decision, or it might introduce other symbolics of the colour green: take your pick here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green#:~:text=Green is the col... (green does have sexual symbolism, which would go well with 'leer', but I don't see the relevance here unless the woman who might be 'right' exercises some sexual influence over Michael).
Like others here and elsewhere, I've found nothing from Victor Hugo that is related, only from Gérard de Nerval, and that is assuming we are indeed dealing with 'le diable vauvert' which I think is unlikely, esp. since there appears to be nothing representing this figure in connection with right and wrong. Although for the purposes of a French character in an English-language film/book, I can perfectly well imagine the author/producer might prefer to 'quote' from the better known Victor Hugo.
Hence my proposal to keep close to what I see as pure invention: le monstre vert du bien et du mal qui se moque des innocents d'un air narquois.
But I hope I'm wide of the mark and someone will come up with a Hugo quote.





Bourth
France
Local time: 22:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Merci beaucoup, Bourth!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Daryo: In fact, it turned out that it's the "right and wrong" that's the red herring. As you said it "right and wrong" instead of "written wrong".
1 day 13 hrs
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1 day 8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
the horrible monster of falsehood mocking the innocent
Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant de l'innocent


Explanation:
CL5 about the meaning.

I guess you need the meaning of this quotation, in order to translate it into Russian, so any comments about my modified translation into English are beside the point.

The French subtitle says:

Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant (se moque?) de l'innocent

Given that the movie was primarily French, I would think that the French subtitles are to be trusted as being "the original".

Looking at the context "le monstre vert" is in fact a personification for "l'écriture erronée". The green colour is supposed to make it more horrible.

"L'écriture erronée" being either a misinterpreted or misleading clue, or a false witness making someone innocent look culpable - some kind of falsehood.

This "green monster" is like a devil laughing at his own practical joke - mocking the falsely accused.

IOW "the horrible monster" has spread falsehood and is laughing at the innocent that got falsely accused.

If it's a quote from Victor Hugo, it's certainly not a literal one.

https://archive.org/search?query="monstre vert"&sin=TXT&page... No Victor Hugo anywhere to be found

That's the kind of quote more appropriate for "Der Proceß" by Franz Kafka.



170
00:13:27,648 --> 00:13:29,148
j'ai vu comment cette femme

171
00:13:29,148 --> 00:13:30,408
vous a embobiné.

172
00:13:30,408 --> 00:13:33,589
Ne t'en fais pas César.

173
00:13:33,589 --> 00:13:35,719
Mais le colonel a dit

174
00:13:35,719 --> 00:13:38,060
que Trégard était un traître.
Et s'il est innocent?

175
00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:40,010
Si elle a raison et qu'il a tort?

176
00:13:40,010 --> 00:13:42,380
"Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée

177
00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:44,330
se moquant de l'innocent".

178
00:13:44,330 --> 00:13:47,240
Victor Hugo.
Citation pour citation,

179
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,370
"dans le doute abstient toi".

180
00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:52,219
Et j'ajoute "au poker je paye toujours pour voir".

181
00:13:52,219 --> 00:13:55,849
Vous pourriez payer très cher pour voir.


https://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtitles/9335786/mission-t...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 9 hrs (2023-12-10 05:25:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The movie was made after the novel (in English) "Mission to Venice" by James Hadley Chase. But this Victor Hugo quote is nowhere to be found in the book. No mention of any "green devil" in the book either. Must have been added in the adaption for the movie, so "Le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant (se moque?) de l'innocent" is definitely the "original".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 9 hrs (2023-12-10 05:45:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Voir Venise et crever (1963) André Versini

Réalisateur André Versini
Auteur de l'oeuvre originale James Hadley Chase
Dialoguiste Jacques Robert
Société de production Cocinor - Comptoir Cinématographique du Nord
Société de production Les Films Metzger et Woog
Société de production Les Films Marceau (Paris)
Société de production Adelphia Compagnia Cinematografica (Roma)
Société de production Filmes Cinematografica (Roma)
Société de production Eichberg-Film GmbH (Berlin)
Directeur de production Hugo Bénédek
Directeur de la photographie André Germain
Compositeur de la musique originale Alain Goraguer

http://cinema.encyclopedie.films.bifi.fr/index.php?pk=52749

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 17 hrs (2023-12-10 13:48:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@Bourth: you got a good point.

"written wrong" - a literal translation for an ST that does make perfect sense in the context i.e. "l'écriture erronée" - turned along the way into a phonetically similar "right and wrong" would explain how this puzzling EN version could come to pass.

The joys of "automated translation", or using translators who just want to get rid of the text as quickly as possible... saving 30 seconds to produce nonsense that takes (collectively) 30/300 hours to untangle.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 18 hrs (2023-12-10 14:21:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

you could also rephrase the idea behind

"le monstre vert de l'écriture erronée se moquant de l'innocent"

as

"the lying devil laughing at (/ mocking) the wrongly accused"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 18 hrs (2023-12-10 14:49:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Two points of method:
- it's got to make sense in the context / to fit in with the rest of the specific story - unless the ST is about someone's raving, it's A MUST;
- you got to make sure that you're dealing with "the source", not a mistranslation posing as "the original".

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:07
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Many thanks to everyone.
Thank you, Daryo.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Daryo!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Bourth: Glad you found subtitles, but they are hardly reliable, more's the pity - right and wrong, cf write and wrong, possibly heard by automatic transcription, as written wrong or writing wrong --> écriture érronée
5 hrs
  -> Misheard "wrong writing" (falsehood) rebranded as a battle between "right and wrong", yes it's a very plausible explanation for an EN version that makes little sense. OTOH I'm 99% sure that these FR subtitles are lifted straight from the movie script.
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Reference comments


1 hr
Reference: Le monstre vert

Reference information:
Écrit par Gérard de Nerval, contemporain de Victor Hugo
https://www.noosfere.org/livres/niourf.asp?numlivre=21465852...

Mais est-ce que ça vous aide?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 heures (2023-12-09 17:06:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I don't think it's a Victor Hugo quote though (deliberate?)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 jours 20 heures (2023-12-11 16:19:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I suspect the issue is rather about the naive being unable to distinguish between 'le vrai et le faux' but the green monster is perplexing and certainly not a quotation.

ormiston
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thank you, ormiston. Well, the main problem for me is this part: "the green monster of right and wrong", not just the green monster. Because I don't understand what "the green monster of right and wrong" is supposed to mean, the general meaning of the sentence in question remains unclear to me. From César's tone, however, I think that he means Michael is too naive. But it's only my guess of course.

Asker: Thank you, ormiston.

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