Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

notario (México)

English translation:

civil-law notary / notary

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
Jul 16, 2017 09:26
6 yrs ago
40 viewers *
Spanish term

notario (México)

Spanish to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
Good morning! I am translating from Spanish into English a three-page document issued in Mexico and to be used in the US. The document is signed by "Lic. Juan García, Notario número xx del Estado de México". The document says: "Acto: declaración voluntaria" and it will be used as a power of attorney, even though the "poder" does not appear in the document. My question is since Juan García is signing as "licenciado" and I understand lawyers are referred to as "licenciados" in Mexico, should I translate "notario" as lawyer to differentiate his title from what a "notario público"/"notary public" in the US? The word "abogado" is never used in the original, only "notario". Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 notary
5 -1 Notary
4 -1 Notary
Change log

Jul 18, 2017 19:55: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

Charles Davis Jul 18, 2017:
A very judicious explanation, Sandro May I just add that I posted the term "civil-law notary" in my response to neilmac's peer comment before AllegroTrans posted it in his peer comment on neilmac's reference entry (if that's relevant), though as Sandro says neither of us, at that stage, was proposing it as a translation.

However, I have come round to the view that Sandro has a valid point here. If there is a serious risk that our translation can mislead readers, I don't think we can ignore that, and in the US that risk does exist.
Sandro Tomasi Jul 18, 2017:
@Andrea Since you don't have much experience with this site I will give you some comments about this question and in general. In reference to your note in neilmac’s reference, Allegro didn’t give an answer. He was just trying to distinguish between the notaries from the two legal systems and just happened to write “civil-law notary.” Allegro has gone on record to support the “notary” answer given by Charles.

Charles was the first one to answer and, generally, points go to the first correct answer -- or selected answer, as the case may be. However, not only did Charles provide a good explanation for his answer but also provided further context when pressed by my disagree which provided information on both sides of the debate, one for “notary” and the other for “civil-law notary.”

As per the KudoZ rules, you, the Asker, can close the question “by selecting the answer deemed most helpful.” http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.4#2.4 Once that is done, either the Asker or Selected Answerer can input the entry into the glossary. If either of you deem it fit, you may enter both answers as possible translations.

Proposed translations

+3
26 mins
Selected

notary

Just notary. Lic. means that the person has a licenciatura degree, in this case, of course, a law degree, but it doesn't mean the person practises as a lawyer. In other words, although lawyers are commonly referred to as Lic., Lic. doesn't always mean lawyer.

I am strongly opposed to translating "notario" as "notary public", which is very common practice. A Mexican (or indeed Spanish) notary is very different from a US notary public and to use this translation is bound to create misunderstandings. There are simply not equivalent.

The following page on "notario (público)" vs. "notary public" is relevant here; it refers to Texas, but applies to the US in general, I think. Note that when translating in Spanish, "according to Texas law the 'literal translation of the phrase ‘Notary Public’ into Spanish is prohibited'".
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/notariopublicoarticle.sht...

You should certainly not translate "notario" as "lawyer".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day1 hr (2017-07-17 11:10:08 GMT)
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The point Sandro raises has come up before; in fact it's been extensively debated here. The issue is the one I've mentioned already: the radical difference between a US notary public, which is a common-law notary, and a Mexican notario, also referred to sometimes as a notario público, a civil-law notary. The disagreement is on what to do about it.

Here are two of the most important previous questions on the subject. It is worth reading the comments and discussions. As you can see, the clear majority view is that "notary" alone is an acceptable translation for "notario":
http://esl.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/law_general/567...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/law_general/625...

For background, Wikipedia is pretty good on the common-law/civil-law distinction in this area:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notary_public
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_notary

I don't think it can be denied that it is vitally important not to translate "notary public" as "notario (público)". Indeed, as mentioned above, it is illegal to do so in Texas. Unscrupulous US notaries public have been misrepresenting themselves to Spanish-speaking immigrants as "notarios": so-called "notary fraud". When translating the other way, the practical issue is less pressing, though logically you can of course argue that if it's wrong when translating into Spanish it's equally wrong when translating into English.

My own feeling up to now, and the point I've made in the past here, is that if you translate "notario" as "notary public", it will definitely create the wrong impression, but that it is acceptable to translate it simply as "notary", as most people do. "Notary public" is a term in English that refers to common-law notaries, but "notary" refers to either, and will be taken to refer to the relevant kind, which in Mexico is a civil-law notary. Sandro's position is that "notary" in US English is a synonym of "notary public" (and I have to admit that's difficult to deny), so US readers will misunderstand "notary" to mean what it means in the US.

I am still not sure it is necessary, every time we have to translate "notario" into English, to put "civil-law notary". If I am translating into British English, I wouldn't do it, largely because "notaries" barely exist in the UK so there are no preconceptions of this kind. But I must admit that given the controversy over this in the US, where the notary public is a familiar figure, when translating for a US audience there is quite a strong argument for specifying by putting civil-law notary. It can't do any harm, and it avoids any possibility of misunderstanding (if readers don't know what "civil law" means, that's their problem; they can easily look it up).

An alternative is "civilian notary" (see the previous questions), but I would not be prepared to use this. Very few people realise that "civilian" can mean this, and most will think it means non-military.
Note from asker:
Thank you. Charles. Yes, I agree and actually decided to use notary before I read your answer :)
Peer comment(s):

agree AllegroTrans
1 hr
Thanks, Chris
agree neilmac : Very useful link. Now I'm wondering about the difference between notary/notary public within the UK, but I'll research that later, as lunch is looming...
1 hr
Cheers, Neil :) The main point, I think, is the difference between common law and civil law notaries.
disagree Sandro Tomasi : This is like translating asalto as assault. Notary is an elliptical of notary public, which is a person who certifies signatures. Black's Law Dictionary: "The status and duties of an American notary public are not comparable to those of a notario."
16 hrs
Hi Sandro. On further consideration I would qualify my initial rejection of your position on this. See added note.
agree philgoddard
17 hrs
Thanks, Phil
agree Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno : I always translate notary public as notario. I don't think I have a duty to explain to my clients what a notario is under Arkansas law. If I had, I'd say something like "fedatario público autenticador de firmas e identidades"
1 day 22 hrs
Thank you, Álvaro. I think this is only an issue in the United States. The "notary fraud" issue is interesting; I suppose we should take note of it.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you :)"
-1
4 hrs

Notary

Suelo traducir documentos legales y siempre he traducido por Notary
Example sentence:

Mr Manuel Aguilar García, power of attorney dated 10/02/1997, registered notary of Seville under number 316.

Note from asker:
Gracias, luisametller, estamos de acuerdo.
Peer comment(s):

neutral AllegroTrans : Same answer as one of Charles's; you could have posted an "agree"
2 hrs
disagree Sandro Tomasi : This is like translating asalto as assault. Notary is an elliptical of notary public, which is a person who certifies signatures. Black's Law Dictionary: "The status and duties of an American notary public are not comparable to those of a notario."
12 hrs
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-1
6 hrs

Notary

Explanation
Peer comment(s):

neutral AllegroTrans : Same answer as one of Charles's; you could have posted an "agree"; and "explanation"??
50 mins
disagree Sandro Tomasi : This is like translating asalto as assault. Notary is an elliptical of notary public, which is a person who certifies signatures. Black's Law Dictionary: "The status and duties of an American notary public are not comparable to those of a notario."
10 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Can of worms

This query prompted me to investigate the difference between notary and Notary Public in different jurisdictions, as I remember my own lawyer in Scotland was also a Notary Public, but I'd never given it a thought until now. As it happens, the term "notary" and the requirements to become one vary considerably between regions and jurisdictions, Scotland being a case in point, but I'll have to get back to it later, as lunch is beckoning...
Note from asker:
Thank you, neilmac, I think it is a complex term to translate.
Sandro Tomasi, I finally decided to use civil-law notary. Thank you! I don't have much experience with this site but will do my best to give Allegro the credit.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

neutral AllegroTrans : Not quite a can of worms, the fundamental diiference is between common law notaries (called notaries public in most jurisdictions) and civil law notaries
24 mins
To me the plethora of jurisdictions makes it a minefield, if you prefer. Chacun à son goût :)
agree Sandro Tomasi : It is a can of worms. Ironically, Allegro provides a good translation for notario with civil-law notary.
15 hrs
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