fret

English translation: stiff breeze

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:fret
English translation:stiff breeze
Entered by: thurayya

21:15 May 15, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / 18th c ms
French term or phrase: fret
"... sur le champs devant arrière bon fret nous eumes vent debout."

Could this phrase mean "from all directions" as in "we immediately had wind coming from all directions" ("from every which way")? The passage is referring to a compass which stopped working correctly because of a young lady sitting near it. The "bon fret" is what troubles me, since the literal translation of "freight" or "cargo" makes no sense here. Thanks in advance.
thurayya
United States
Local time: 23:10
stiff breeze
Explanation:
Just backing up that this is a constant wind -rather than a gust and that the coolness of the wind has resulted in the 'frais' becoming associated with the wind itself.
This is from the Tresor de Langue française (on line)

3. MAR. Vent frais. Vent relativement fort et froid, dont la vitesse est comprise entre 22 et 33 nœuds (selon l'échelle de Beaufort), favorable à la navigation (d'apr. SIZAIRE Marine 1972). Brise fraîche. Pour peu que la brise fût fraîche, la mer s'élevait d'une manière alarmante pour la conservation de nos mâts (Voy. Pérouse, t. 3, 1797, p. 57).
Emploi subst. masc. Vent assez froid et assez fort. [Avec une épithète antéposée] La force du vent. Grand, joli, beau frais. Les vents étaient au sud-ouest, petit frais, la nuit très-claire (Voy. Pérouse, t. 2, 1797, p. 387). Il ventait bon frais, et la barque faisait six à sept milles à l'heure (DUMAS père, Monte-Cristo, t. 1, 1846, p. 384) :

15. Poussés par les grands frais de l'Ouest, les grands voiliers franchissent en 24 jours, sans voir terre, la distance entre le Cap et Wellington.
VIDAL DE LA BL., Princ. géogr. hum., 1921, p. 262.
Emploi subst. fém. La fraîche. Vent faible du matin ou du soir. Synon. brise de terre, brise de mer (selon qu'elle vient de la terre ou de la mer).

Il ventait ****bon frais****
Selected response from:

Alain Pommet
Local time: 06:10


Summary of answers provided
3 +3good cargo, prime cargo, well paid cargo
Bourth (X)
3stiff breeze
Alain Pommet


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
stiff breeze


Explanation:
Just backing up that this is a constant wind -rather than a gust and that the coolness of the wind has resulted in the 'frais' becoming associated with the wind itself.
This is from the Tresor de Langue française (on line)

3. MAR. Vent frais. Vent relativement fort et froid, dont la vitesse est comprise entre 22 et 33 nœuds (selon l'échelle de Beaufort), favorable à la navigation (d'apr. SIZAIRE Marine 1972). Brise fraîche. Pour peu que la brise fût fraîche, la mer s'élevait d'une manière alarmante pour la conservation de nos mâts (Voy. Pérouse, t. 3, 1797, p. 57).
Emploi subst. masc. Vent assez froid et assez fort. [Avec une épithète antéposée] La force du vent. Grand, joli, beau frais. Les vents étaient au sud-ouest, petit frais, la nuit très-claire (Voy. Pérouse, t. 2, 1797, p. 387). Il ventait bon frais, et la barque faisait six à sept milles à l'heure (DUMAS père, Monte-Cristo, t. 1, 1846, p. 384) :

15. Poussés par les grands frais de l'Ouest, les grands voiliers franchissent en 24 jours, sans voir terre, la distance entre le Cap et Wellington.
VIDAL DE LA BL., Princ. géogr. hum., 1921, p. 262.
Emploi subst. fém. La fraîche. Vent faible du matin ou du soir. Synon. brise de terre, brise de mer (selon qu'elle vient de la terre ou de la mer).

Il ventait ****bon frais****


    Reference: http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?72;...
Alain Pommet
Local time: 06:10
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 12
Notes to answerer
Asker: Merci Alain. I've been using the Lexilogos (which has the Tresor and many other online dictionaries) and William Falconer's Dictionary of the Marine websites, but when the spelling is wrong, and I don't realize what it should be, it is very difficult to get headed in the right direction. I really appreciate the help. Stiff breeze sounds very good.

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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
good cargo, prime cargo, well paid cargo


Explanation:
What makes shippingn worthwhile is getting from A to B in the shortest possible time, so with the most favourable winds in those days, and having a cargo of high value. Carrying tea from China to England on a clipper was a more remunerative venture than carrying coal on some tramp steamer, be it to Newcastle or elsewhere.

Your author is not strong on punctuation, methinks.

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Note added at 1 hr (2007-05-15 22:36:59 GMT)
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Sorry, I didn't get to the end of my train of thought. Maybe this is an expression of exasperation: "We've got all this money sitting here waiting to be earned, and now we don't even know which way to go. Not only that, but potentially we have a head wind ..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-05-16 00:21:23 GMT)
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Possibly also a deformation of "frais", possibly with an occitan/Catalonian/patois touch ...

El vent fret de l'hivern. es resfrega per sa teva cara. caminant pel carrer. no vols que s'acabi la matinada. estaves emprenyat ...
www.mallorcaweb.net/valnou/lletres.htm

vive la pluie et le vent fret à Cuba....! J'ai porté mes 3 bikinis sans crainte...sans même ...
gilbertisabelle.spaces.live.com

La beurghère seugue darriere et vouéla don Léontine qui va s'méte à l'abri dau vent fret dans sa loghe. Au pien mitant d'l'endret , o l'a t'ine fieure ...
pageperso.aol.fr/charentes1617/beurdassou1b.html

Le coup de Vent Fret de Fontainebleu (The Gust of Wind orthe Approaching Storm) signed 'Courbet' (lower right) oil on canvas 56 x 90 in. (143.5 x 228.5 cm.
www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=iKvG7m70

sais pas comment c'est chez vous mais ici il fait un vent fret Je vais retourner en hibernation Au moins je vais être à la chaleur avec les nounours ...
www.crea-net.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?p=165581&sid=dd73932461...

Though one of these supports Tony's suggestion of "gust".

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Note added at 3 hrs (2007-05-16 00:35:32 GMT)
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Bon fret, cargaison composée de marchandises avantageuses. Mauvais fret, cargaison de marchandises de mauvais débit. Faux fret, fausse cargaison, ...
dictionnaire.sensagent.com/fret/fr-fr/

Fret Le terme fret, équivoque, peut revêtir trois sens :
- Somme convenue pour le transport de marchandises par navire.
- Les marchandises composant le chargement du navire.
- Le prix du loyer du navire
http://www.mandragore2.net/dico/lexique1/lexique1.php?page=f

But this cracks it: "bon fret" = "bon frais" = "un vent bon frais" -

Il vente bon frais : s’il dure, nous mouillons demain au Cap. 12 mars. A la pointe du jour on a reconnu la montagne de la Table. Nous étions au peu au large ...
www.memoires-de-siam.com/journal_choisy_mars86.html

bon frais locution nominale - masculin ; singulier
Definition :
1. MÉTÉOROLOGIE vent de force 6 sur l'échelle de Beaufort, en météorologie marine [Remarque d'usage: on dit aussi: "joli frais"]
(avis de bon frais au large des côtes)
http://fr.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_2016008898/frais.html

The latter is of interest as the table is based not only on contemporary logbooks but also on Dalrymple’s correspondence with French mariners. Some of the terms cited by Dalrymple, including vent peu and vent moyenne frais (see Appendix II) did not, however, appear in the sample of logbooks used in this study. Fortunately, a large number of contemporary French and French-English maritime dictionaries have survived, and provided useful evidence for the meaning of different terms [ ... ]
beau: IU, BF 5
beau frais: BF 5
beau petit frais: BF 4
beaucoup de calme: BF 0
beaucoup de forces: BF > 8
beaucoup de vent: BF 7
belle brise: BF 4
bien petit frais: BF 4
bon frais: BF 5
bon frais an peu violent: BF 5
bon frais fraisant: BF 5
bon gros frais: IU, BF 7
bon petit frais: BF 4
bon vent: IU
bonne brise: BF 5
brise carabinée : BF 6
brise fiable : BF 2
brise folle: NDA, literally, baffling wind, and having no specific foce
brise forte: BF 7
brise fraîche : BF 5
http://www.ucm.es/info/cliwoc/Dictionary_text.pdf

Dictionnaire de l'Académie française, 1835
On dit dans le même sens, Un bon frais, un bon petit frais, sans ajouter Vent. Dans un sens contraire, Vent forcé, Vent violent et plus fort qu'il ne faut. ...
www.chass.utoronto.ca/~wulfric/academie/vent6.htm

Well done, Tony!

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Note added at 9 hrs (2007-05-16 07:06:26 GMT)
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It might have made things easier if you had told us earlier that "At times it is clear that the person taking the dictation does not understand the word" ...

Bourth (X)
Local time: 06:10
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 110
Notes to answerer
Asker: Ah, seems like you and Tony are on to something ... gust of wind, wind, breeze. As usual in this ms, it seems to be an orthographic mistake (though you did provide an attestation as "fret"). At times it is clear that the person taking the dictation does not understand the word, but writes something that sounds the same. Thanks for the copious attestations! And Tony, (sorry, I couldn't seem to make the note work in your answer) that EN archaic attestation seems very on target and very interesting! I love the odd remnants of the links between French and English over the centuries!

Asker: My apologies. At times I am on board the ship sailing the Atlantic in 1730. Words are swirling around in my head much like the many storms I have read about, and I get caught up in the descriptions of the tomfoolery that went on during this voyage. I am also new to this forum. In a previous post/question I believe I had mentioned that this was handwritten. (In my experience there are often ortho errors in handwritten ms) Anyway, I thought maybe questions from the same person were linked, and I didn't want to be redundant.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Najib Aloui
3 mins

agree  Swatchka
20 mins

agree  Miranda Joubioux (X)
14 hrs
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