| Stran v tématu: < [1 2 3 4] > | Proposal: experimental KudoZ environment without points Autor vlákna: Kim Metzger
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Kim Metzger 
Mexiko
Local time: 12:47
němčina -> angličtina
AUTOR TÉMATU | Proposal: try SUPER KudoZ Experiment | Jan 25, 2004 |
I am a proud member of ProZ and greatly appreciate the fact that a considerable number of KudoZ participants are true pros. Some of them are the same respected professionals who participate in other, more exclusive lists for translators. KudoZ has an element of fun and excitement about it that the traditional lists lack. Real experts in technology, law, finance, etc. provide KudoZ help every day. I also know that there are real pros and experts who no longer participate – either as askers or a... See more I am a proud member of ProZ and greatly appreciate the fact that a considerable number of KudoZ participants are true pros. Some of them are the same respected professionals who participate in other, more exclusive lists for translators. KudoZ has an element of fun and excitement about it that the traditional lists lack. Real experts in technology, law, finance, etc. provide KudoZ help every day. I also know that there are real pros and experts who no longer participate – either as askers or answerers – maybe because of the problems mentioned above.
Lest someone start complaining about "elitism", I would like to quote from the ProZ answer to the question: What is ProZ.com?
ProZ.com--the community--is a group of language professionals that includes translators, interpreters, translation agencies, and their clients. ProZ.com--the site--is a marketplace and workplace: thousands of language pros exchange job and term information every here every day.
FAQs on KudoZ: "A term is considered to be "easy-level" if any bilingual person will know it (and) "pro-level" if only a professional translator or a specialist in the field will be able to translate it."
I think it is worth considering trying out a separate format called SUPER KudoZ (or whatever) as an experiment. The only difference between the current system and the experimental format would be that no points would be awarded for SUPER KudoZ. Anybody can participate. The only reward a participant would have would be the satisfaction of helping colleagues with difficult translation problems.
Advantages:
1. Higher quality of proposed solutions
2. More trust, less showing off, less hostility, competition
3. More reliable glossary
4. Opportunity to develop research skills
Disadvantages:
1. No points
2. Fewer participants ▲ Collapse
| | | | Oleg Osipov
Ruská federace
Local time: 21:47
angličtina -> ruština
+ ...
| Three points about KudoZ points | Jan 25, 2004 |
1. KudoZ helps - agree
2. KudoZ has considerable downsides - disagree.
A professional Asker chooses the acceptable answer and neglects a poor one. Why should we care about point hunters? We earn money to provide for the family - not the points.
3. To create separate KudoZ? - disagree.
The current system is quite O.K. if the users do not abuse it.
Sincerely,
Alec & Kot
| | | | lenkl
Local time: 20:47
francouzština -> angličtina
| Do something, please | Jan 26, 2004 |
Well, SOMETHING needs to be done if we want KudoZ to be relevant for established professional translators. If it’s going to be just a game, so be it. New features could then be added, such as “the worst possible translation” for those who like multilingual puns. But if we want to have a tool that effectively helps us in our work, this isn’t really it.
It’s late Sunday night. I take a look at what’s going on in FR>EN. A question about an insurance term. Three replies, one... See more Well, SOMETHING needs to be done if we want KudoZ to be relevant for established professional translators. If it’s going to be just a game, so be it. New features could then be added, such as “the worst possible translation” for those who like multilingual puns. But if we want to have a tool that effectively helps us in our work, this isn’t really it.
It’s late Sunday night. I take a look at what’s going on in FR>EN. A question about an insurance term. Three replies, one right, two wrong. With only a 33-percent chance of picking the good answer, the asker misses and adds another bad entry to the glossary. Questions have already been asked several times regarding that same term over the past few months, and the glossary accordingly contains several entries, a few of which are correct but most of which make the same mistake. There are entries for the term in the singular (mostly wrong) and in the plural (some right answers).
I look at the list again and see a legal phrase with fairly basic terms pertaining to tenders and contracts. A couple of answers, both far off the mark, but one has been selected (in which not just one but two terms are completely mistranslated). Another pointless entry in the glossary, another asker with one or two more mistakes in a translation.
I’m all for a new “class” of questions, preferably with no points to be gained and a waiting period. As others have pointed out, some of us spend a lot of time researching a term before posting a question as a last resort. It’s a bit insulting to get answers in a matter of minutes from people who’ve obviously not given the matter much thought. The argument that there is already a “pro” and “easy” category fails to take into consideration the fact that both are constantly being misused. I have no idea why some truly difficult questions end up in the “easy” category, while very simple ones qualify as “pro” (I sometimes move them).
The next issue that needs to be addressed is how to ensure that the right answers are picked. A clueless asker cannot be trusted to exercise good judgment in selecting which suggestion is best. I have no idea how this can be resolved, but it is a serious impediment to building a sound database. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alex Zelkind (X)
angličtina -> ruština
+ ...
I think that if there is any problem at all - it's the attitude of some ProZ members who consider themselves "superpros" and others as "amateurs".
It's up to askers to choose the answer to their question. Let the askers make the choice.
Many times askers prefer "amateur" answers to "superprofessional" ones. Maybe that's why "superpros" want changes?
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lien
Nizozemsko
Local time: 20:47
angličtina -> francouzština
+ ...
| SUPER kudoz for true pros | Jan 26, 2004 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
I am a proud member of ProZ and greatly appreciate the fact that a considerable number of KudoZ participants are true pros.
Yes, but it is not enough, a new category is necessary, for the real true pros from the others true pros.
"Define true pros for next monday"
Real experts in technology, law, finance, etc. provide KudoZ help every day. I also know that there are real pros and experts who no longer participate – either as askers or answerers – maybe because of the problems mentioned above.
Or maybe because they have been so many times attacked, stung, bitten, every single day, by people disliking them because they don't like the flaws in their arguments being exposed or challenged, haven't they Metzger ?
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Španělsko
Local time: 20:47
Člen
katalánština -> angličtina
+ ...
"The only difference between the current system and the experimental format would be that no points would be awarded for SUPER KudoZ. Anybody can participate. The only reward a participant would have would be the satisfaction of helping colleagues with difficult translation problems.
Advantages:
1. Higher quality of proposed solutions
2. More trust, less showing off, less hostility, competition
3. More reliable glossary
4. Opportunity to develop research s... See more "The only difference between the current system and the experimental format would be that no points would be awarded for SUPER KudoZ. Anybody can participate. The only reward a participant would have would be the satisfaction of helping colleagues with difficult translation problems.
Advantages:
1. Higher quality of proposed solutions
2. More trust, less showing off, less hostility, competition
3. More reliable glossary
4. Opportunity to develop research skills
Disadvantages:
1. No points
2. Fewer participants"
Kim, I have only two "disagrees" and they're your "disadvantages".
1. No points.
I consider this a plus. Only someone really willing to help and not grab points will take part.
2. Due to 1., these "fewer" participants will probably be those who "know their stuff" and not time wasters.
And going back to Nikki's question, I actually thought the "reliability ratio" (as it was called, if I remember rightly) was already in place and, in my infinite incompetence, was just unable to find it.
I think that, whatever form such a ratio takes, it's important.
It's obvious that under the current system, someone simply answering everything that moves (especially Easy Questions) can accumulate a ranking which is manifestly unproportional to their actual competence (in even their own language, now I'm on the subject).
I, like umpteen others, could easily have 2,000 more points than now by the simple expedient of answering questions such as "table" "seven" "blue" (and I mean in their literal, primary, first dictionary entry meaning).
"mesa"
"siete"
"azul"
There you go, 12 more KudoZ, assuming 4 points awarded per answer.
Hardly representative of anything.
The first time I every posted anything here, the first thing I mentioned was the KudoZ system and I didn't "come to bury it, but to praise it". And still do.
But I think Kim's suggestions are well worth "havin' a gud tink".
Saludos,
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | Katia Perry
Brazílie
Local time: 15:47
Člen (2007)
angličtina -> portugalština
+ ...
| No points. I think it's a good idea | Jan 26, 2004 |
I'm a new member, and not a very experienced translator. Sometimes I have a look at kudoz and, when I think I can help, I participate in it. Indeed, many times I feel as if some answerers don't have any idea of the subject. But they put an answer and, for my surprise, sometimes these answers are selected. I think nothing can be done about it. It's the asker option...
I fully agree with Kim that earning no kudoz points will sensibly reduce the number of participants and this will improve th... See more I'm a new member, and not a very experienced translator. Sometimes I have a look at kudoz and, when I think I can help, I participate in it. Indeed, many times I feel as if some answerers don't have any idea of the subject. But they put an answer and, for my surprise, sometimes these answers are selected. I think nothing can be done about it. It's the asker option...
I fully agree with Kim that earning no kudoz points will sensibly reduce the number of participants and this will improve the quality of answers. However, I don't think it's necessary to create a new category, neither to impose restrictions to participation. It's not possible to change the rules on what we have now? Point hunters will go away for themselves. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Lotyšsko
Local time: 21:47
Člen (2003)
angličtina -> lotyština
+ ...
| Totally disagree | Jan 26, 2004 |
I think it will not reduce the quantity of answers, but do away with them altogether. After all, the point system gives at least some incentive to answer. IMHO, the globally failed system of communism has demonstrated well enough, that people will not do something for nothing. Besides, the points are not actually money, but they at least are something- e.g., they give you respect at least self respect... take away all motivation and see if anyone will bother to spend his time to help someone oth... See more I think it will not reduce the quantity of answers, but do away with them altogether. After all, the point system gives at least some incentive to answer. IMHO, the globally failed system of communism has demonstrated well enough, that people will not do something for nothing. Besides, the points are not actually money, but they at least are something- e.g., they give you respect at least self respect... take away all motivation and see if anyone will bother to spend his time to help someone other. Personally I do not believe there will be many. And those few who will, very soon will find a better way to waste their time.
This is only my humble opinion, but it is supported by the fact, that I have for a long time experienced on my own skin how Communism functions (or rather doesn’t).
Uldis
perry wrote:
I fully agree with Kim that earning no kudoz points will sensibly reduce the number of participants and this will improve the quality of answers. However, I don't think it's necessary to create a new category, neither to impose restrictions to participation. It's not possible to change the rules on what we have now? Point hunters will go away for themselves.
[Edited at 2004-01-26 13:01] ▲ Collapse
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Ouadoud
Local time: 21:47
angličtina -> arabština
+ ...
| A parameter to consider | Jan 26, 2004 |
i'd just wanted to point out a parameter that seems neglected in the discussion: the nature of the questions.
Some questions are technical and need (only) somebody who has more experience than me (for example) to answer them. Others (and this seems the focal point on which this discussion is based) need flair and expertise, because they're related to the context and the double-meanings or even to the metaphors and are therefore rather related to literary gifts and text analysis skil... See more i'd just wanted to point out a parameter that seems neglected in the discussion: the nature of the questions.
Some questions are technical and need (only) somebody who has more experience than me (for example) to answer them. Others (and this seems the focal point on which this discussion is based) need flair and expertise, because they're related to the context and the double-meanings or even to the metaphors and are therefore rather related to literary gifts and text analysis skills..
Those are the pros, the other may remain easy.
Just an opinion. Thank you
Ouadoud ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 20:47
němčina -> angličtina
+ ...
| Something for nothing? | Jan 26, 2004 |
Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
IMHO, the globally failed system of communism has demonstrated well enough, that people will not do something for nothing. (...) take away all motivation and see if anyone will bother to spend his time to help someone other.
Uldis, I have to disagree with your assessment here. You need only look at the great number of other Internet sites where people have the opportunity to help each other for no material gain, and also without "points".
Some of these sites (or parts of them) serve the same purpose as Kudoz - the answering of translation queries. And some of them were very successful years before ProZ was set up.
ProZ may be the site with the highest volume. But many other sites with a function similar to KudoZ are frequented by people who provide consistently high-quality answers. FLEFO is one example, and some of the most skilled and experienced colleagues answering KudoZ questions were in fact at one time very active on FLEFO. You might legitimately ask why more questions are asked on KudoZ than on FLEFO; in my opinion, the reason is simply that no effort was made by FLEFO management to attract new blood. FLEFO has therefore become a select group of experts with little reason to ask questions themselves. And with no need for moderation, incidentally - in fact I don't think a moderator has been seen there for two years now. It's fair enough to speculate what ProZ might be like if this or that were changed, but the reality at other venues is often quite different to what people expect.
Besides KudoZ, ProZ has other content, such as the forums. People share opinion and experience there, but without being awarded any "points". Why? Some people write HowTos for ProZ - I've written two myself in fact, on the subject of Linux for translators - what else(!). Who's going to award me points? In another forum I recently got into a discussion of Linux with a colleague, and was told by another participant to stop discussing it in public. Four or five other colleagues subsequently demanded that I write an article on the subject for our association's journal! Would there have been any benefit, and if so what, from these messages being posted under the heading "Disagree" and "Agree"?
I think you are right that KudoZ traffic would probably drop without the points. The fun factor, which I think has a value of its own, would also be lost. I am sure though that the drop in quantity would be matched by a corrsponding rise in reliability of the answers given, and therefore in quality. Without ths constraints imposed by the KudoZ system, the facility for a proper discussion of queries and answers to them would be a tremendous benefit.
Marc
| | | | | People will answer even if there are no points | Jan 26, 2004 |
MarcPrior wrote:
... many other sites with a function similar to KudoZ are frequented by people who provide consistently high-quality answers.
Right, people will clearly answer even if there are not points. FLEFO is one example of many, and though they have their own limitations, these resources work quite well.
... Linux ...
I thought for a minute you were going to complete a post without saying that!
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Lotyšsko
Local time: 21:47
Člen (2003)
angličtina -> lotyština
+ ...
| Yes, Henry, maybe in major language pairs, | Jan 26, 2004 |
where there thousands of participants, of course, there always someone will be willing to help. But there are language pairs where, OK, 50 people are registered, 30 of them enter ProZ twice a year, from the rest maybe 2 of 3 are online today. If they'll decide not to bother, the help (and that's what the KudoZ is for) will not be forthcoming. In my opinion it is better to keep the carrot, after all it doesn't cost anything but ads stimulus ... See more where there thousands of participants, of course, there always someone will be willing to help. But there are language pairs where, OK, 50 people are registered, 30 of them enter ProZ twice a year, from the rest maybe 2 of 3 are online today. If they'll decide not to bother, the help (and that's what the KudoZ is for) will not be forthcoming. In my opinion it is better to keep the carrot, after all it doesn't cost anything but ads stimulus And the element of play is important to adults, too, especially if most of their time is spent in very serious work
Uldis
Henry wrote:
Right, people will clearly answer even if there are not points. FLEFO is one example of many, and though they have their own limitations, these resources work quite well.
[Edited at 2004-01-26 17:07] ▲ Collapse
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nyamuk
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 12:47
indonéština -> angličtina
+ ...
| No points questions | Jan 26, 2004 |
Rather than creating a new Kudoz category why not just give the the option when posting a query to stipulate that no Kudoz points will be awarded for the question. This way it will be at the askers discretion. This seems like a logical extension to the current system where the asker decides how many Kudoz points to award, only in this case it is made clear in the query that the asker will not award points to the selected answer.
| | | | | We're keeping the carrot--the proposal is just for an experimental additional section | Jan 26, 2004 |
Uldis wrote: In my opinion it is better to keep the carrot, after all it doesn't cost anything but ads stimulus And the element of play is important to adults, too, especially if most of their time is spent in very serious work
Well put!
To be clear, the proposal here was for an experimental new section or type of question ("point-free" questions.) Eliminating KudoZ across the board is not something we are considering now.
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nyamuk wrote:
Rather than creating a new Kudoz category why not just give the the option when posting a query to stipulate that no Kudoz points will be awarded for the question. This way it will be at the askers discretion. This seems like a logical extension to the current system where the asker decides how many Kudoz points to award, only in this case it is made clear in the query that the asker will not award points to the selected answer.
Does that sound good to you, Kim?
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