| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | is it acceptable to make a BB entry for an agency you never worked for? Thread poster: Vadim Kadyrov
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| Normal business! | Aug 9, 2012 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
1.
I took a four-hour unpaid test, and was given positive and enthusiastic feedback. Some five months later, having heard nothing, I wrote a courteous letter asking if there were realistic prospects for work in the future. No response.
[In my view, this lack of basic courtesy, after having wasted so much of my time, was inexcusable, and merited a negative Blue Board rating and comment.]
2.
An agency contacted me, asked if I would be available to work one month hence. I agreed to do the work. The time came and went, and an e-mail I sent asking whether the job was still available went unanswered.
[Another breach of basic courtesy and good faith, but no rating or entry of said agency allowed under current Blue Board rules.)
Sorry Robert, but this is simply normal business in our industry. Many agencies send you tests, say they are thrilled about the results... and then never get back to you again, mostly because of rate levels. One more reason to steer away from free tests.
Let's not pollute the Blueboard with information about unpolite/rude non-customers and let's keep the information about actual customers, as usual.
Edited to add this: the Blueboard should be about facts, not about perceptions. Sensibility towards rudeness or unpoliteness varies greatly from one person to the next, and by adding information about unpolite/rude non-customers, we would obscure the facts that we need in order to stay away from unreliable business partners.
[Edited at 2012-08-09 06:06 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 03:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| A change may be in order | Aug 9, 2012 |
Andy Lemminger wrote:
It's against the rules but in my opinion it makes perfect sense to publish BB entries about companies you haven't worked for. ... In the end it's only about the translator's call, answering the question: "Would you ever work for this company?" I can sometimes answer this question without having worked for an agency.
I would not oppose a proposal to change the rule from "you must have worked for this company" to "you must have had direct contact with this company".
Then you would be able to comment on an agency that gave you a free test, or an agency that keeps sending you useless job offers. However, if you contacted the company first, their first reply should not be deemed "contact", because they might simply reply out of politeness or because of their procedures.
If such a change is made, I would like this to be stated in the record submission form, though. In other words, when submitting a BB entry, the translator should optionally select "I have done paid work for this company", and it should be possible for BB users to choose to see only such entries, and the overall score should not take non-paid-work entries into account.
| | | | | Does not work | Aug 9, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
In other words, when submitting a BB entry, the translator should optionally select "I have done paid work for this company", and it should be possible for BB users to choose to see only such entries, and the overall score should not take non-paid-work entries into account.
Sorry Samuel, but we all know what happens with the optional checkboxes in other areas of Proz.com, for instance Kudoz. When people SHOULD be informing about something, they NEVER do it! Many people are terribly lazy --or plain irresponsible-- when asked to specify things in detail.
In the case of the Blueboard, we would get a lot of uncategorised low LWA entries caused by lazy, irresponsible, or even vindictive people who would very quickly "forget" to use the checkbox. Such option is something I completely oppose to: I want accurate, objective information about what companies, no matter if polite or unpolite, kind or unkind, fair or unfair in their communications or their selection of translators, will be OK or will be trouble when I decide to work for them. That is what the Blueboard is all about!
I need the facts. For feelings, there are lots of other places: make a blog or vlog about it, put it on Twitter, tell your grandmother, get an I-was-ignored-by-AgencyX tattoo, whatever!
[Edited at 2012-08-09 07:31 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 03:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I want accurate, objective information about what companies...
Yes, but the topic of this thread is how to provide accurate, objective information if you didn't actually do paid work for the company.
The BB is full of entries that relate only to subjective matters. Disallowing translators who didn't work for the company from posting entries won't improve that situation.
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| Artificially turning subjective to objective | Aug 9, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I want accurate, objective information about what companies... Yes, but the topic of this thread is how to provide accurate, objective information if you didn't actually do paid work for the company.
Not at all. It would never be objective information. It would be subjective information summarised in a way that it would look objective.
I do not care about feelings/opinions like:
- "This outsourcer took four months to answer my email."
- "The outsourver never replied to my test."
- "They are rude and said that I should lower my rates because other people are cheaper."
- "They forced me to sign all lots of papers just to do the test."
- "The guy can hardly communicate professionally".
These are things I can easily defend myself from. However, if you allow someone to convert these situations to a LWA of 1.... and assuming as a fact that very many people will not use/notice/remember/care of an eventual "I have done work for this outsourcer" checkbox... you will kill the meaning of a LWA of 1, which, to the careful reader, clearly means real trouble and not just unpoliteness/unresponsiveness.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 21:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Robert Forstag wrote:
1.
I took a four-hour unpaid test, and was given positive and enthusiastic feedback. Some five months later, having heard nothing, I wrote a courteous letter asking if there were realistic prospects for work in the future. No response.
[In my view, this lack of basic courtesy, after having wasted so much of my time, was inexcusable, and merited a negative Blue Board rating and comment.]
2.
An agency contacted me, asked if I would be available to work one month hence. I agreed to do the work. The time came and went, and an e-mail I sent asking whether the job was still available went unanswered.
[Another breach of basic courtesy and good faith, but no rating or entry of said agency allowed under current Blue Board rules.) Sorry Robert, but this is simply normal business in our industry. Many agencies send you tests, say they are thrilled about the results... and then never get back to you again, mostly because of rate levels. One more reason to steer away from free tests. Let's not pollute the Blueboard with information about unpolite/rude non-customers and let's keep the information about actual customers, as usual. Edited to add this: the Blueboard should be about facts, not about perceptions. Sensibility towards rudeness or unpoliteness varies greatly from one person to the next, and by adding information about unpolite/rude non-customers, we would obscure the facts that we need in order to stay away from unreliable business partners. [Edited at 2012-08-09 06:06 GMT]
***
As I think I made clear, my objection was not, in the respective cases, to 1.) having taken a test and subsequently not being offered work; and 2.) to agreeing to reserve time one month hence and not being sent the work subsequently.
Instead, my objection was to not having my e-mails inquiring as to what was going on simply ignored in both cases.
I do not consider this kind of conduct "normal business behavior" and I could not imagine myself blowing off agencies in a similar manner if the shoe were on the other foot.
I do think that there are no small number of agencies out there who would like such reprehensible conduct to be somehow accepted as "normal," just as there are agencies who think translators have no right to kick up a fuss about payment that is a couple of weeks late.
Acquiescing in such inconsiderate treatment simply encourages more of the same.
And, of course, I would never do a four-hour unpaid test again!
[Edited at 2012-08-09 21:41 GMT]
| | | | | The blue board has one simple purpose | Aug 15, 2012 |
The blue board has one simple purpose: to warn translators about non-payers and agencies who attempt to change the terms and conditions AFTER the work has been delivered.
This is essentially illegal on the part of the agencies and, as freelancers, we often cannot afford or do not know how to claim money which we have earned - so the Blue Board is there to help us avoid the situation in the first place.
Everything else is simply part of running a business and can be avoi... See more The blue board has one simple purpose: to warn translators about non-payers and agencies who attempt to change the terms and conditions AFTER the work has been delivered.
This is essentially illegal on the part of the agencies and, as freelancers, we often cannot afford or do not know how to claim money which we have earned - so the Blue Board is there to help us avoid the situation in the first place.
Everything else is simply part of running a business and can be avoided as we gain experience:
If you have an argument with a rude PM about payment conditions before starting the work - you know to avoid them in the future! The PM is, quite frankly, unprofessional and foolish, as they have lost a potential asset to their business.
Do not spend four hours doing a free test in blind faith that no one would make you do it for nothing. There are plenty of thoughtless paper-shufflers around who are happy to waste others' time, forgetting that not everyone automatically gets paid by the hour to do meaningless paperwork.
Never allocate time for a "potential project" and reject real projects which are offered to you! You do not owe any agencies anything- you are freelance, not an employee. Any favours and time allocations should be purely at your convenience to improve relationships with customers.
[Edited at 2012-08-15 12:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 02:17
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I totally agree with everything you said, Lucy | Aug 15, 2012 |
LucyPatterson wrote:
If you have an argument with a rude PM about payment conditions before starting the work - you know to avoid them in the future!
Certainly, no freelancer should ever waste time twice on one agency. But what about all the other freelancers who have yet to encounter that boor? I think it's a neighbourly act to warn them of what I found (whilst letting them make their own decisions, of course) so they can avoid that initial waste.
If I had access to that type of comment, I might still start negotiations - after all, people move on and we all have off days - but I would be more wary. And inexperienced freelancers might save themselves a lot of time by avoiding being led up the garden path.
On the other hand, what I would like to see would have no place on a public site. It would do nobody any good to air such things in public.
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