| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Questions concerning how much to charge Thread poster: Astrid Elke Witte
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Dear colleagues,
I have noticed a few threads being started recently, asking colleagues how much to charge for translation, editing or proofreading services, and I have even noticed people answering, stating exactly how much they charge.
I would like to mention that I do not think that this is a good way to proceed. There are a few reasons for this.
Firstly, you are in competition with some of the colleagues whom you are asking. It is not really a good idea... See more Dear colleagues,
I have noticed a few threads being started recently, asking colleagues how much to charge for translation, editing or proofreading services, and I have even noticed people answering, stating exactly how much they charge.
I would like to mention that I do not think that this is a good way to proceed. There are a few reasons for this.
Firstly, you are in competition with some of the colleagues whom you are asking. It is not really a good idea to ask your competitors how much to charge.
Secondly, some translation agencies do read these forums, and any information they obtain may help to drive our rates downwards.
Questions, for example, regarding the percentage of the translation price to take to determine the proofreading price seem OK. However, it does not seem to be a good idea to ask directly about exact prices.
Many thanks.
Astrid
[Edited at 2010-03-18 22:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Vreeburg 
Netherlands
Local time: 20:31
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
I very much doubt that my colleague translators can bring down the price by dicussing their rates, it's mostly cheap agencies from countries far far away that bring the price down...
If anything I think discussing rates actually helps to **improve** the rates we get for our work.
Especially here on Proz I've seen a big drop in rates on what's on offer!
Ed Vreeburg
Translate.ED
[Edited at 2010-03-16 16:30 GMT]
| | | | | downfall in rates | Mar 17, 2010 |
Astrid, I think you are right.
I'm one of those agencies following the topics here and to be honest I am wondering lately if we're not overpaying the translators we work with . So many translators are disclosing vital information regarding pricing/editing etc and are indeed also sharing information on rates or even dislosing other important information about their work ethics or procedures.
I also find it s... See more Astrid, I think you are right.
I'm one of those agencies following the topics here and to be honest I am wondering lately if we're not overpaying the translators we work with. So many translators are disclosing vital information regarding pricing/editing etc and are indeed also sharing information on rates or even dislosing other important information about their work ethics or procedures.
I also find it sometimes unbelievable to read to what length translators on this forum will go to help their colleagues, who are in fact at the same time their rival competitors. So many questions asked on this forum are undoubtedly from absolute novices to the translation business, yet they receive crucial answers to help them on their way. Nobody seems to care that these wannabee translators are messing up the translation market, since anyone can call himself a translator and start a business.
However, for the people asking others what rates they are applying, it is in fact a good question: they are in competition, and if you know how much your colleague is asking you can stay below this rate to stay competitive and this will drive the prices down even further I'm afraid! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Market structure not market knowledge | Mar 17, 2010 |
The structure of the market (or market segment) determines prices, not the level of market knowledge that individual players in the market have or do not have.
By the logic expressed here, if knowledge of prices were the only factor, the prices of everything where the customer has knowledge of all prices charged by all suppliers would tend to zero. This is demonstrably not the case, from tinned peas to motor cars.
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Astrid Elke Witte
Germany
Local time: 20:31
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you, Rifraf! | Mar 17, 2010 |
Rifraf wrote:
However, for the people asking others what rates they are applying, it is in fact a good question: they are in competition, and if you know how much your colleague is asking you can stay below this rate to stay competitive and this will drive the prices down even further I'm afraid!
This is exactly what I meant - and it is happening. I distinctly remember that, at least until a few years ago, it was clearly understood by people that the prices they charged were not to be openly disclosed. Every time someone asked directly how much to charge, a moderator stepped in and reminded people of the need for discretion, and asked for any answers to be sent to the enquirer privately by e-mail. It would do us good to get back to this position, since the openness exercised in this forum on the topic in recent times is probably having a damaging effect. The discussion in a forum thread takes place between just a few people. However, it is not a private conversation. Many others are reading the thread, and it is most likely those who are reading it and not joining in who are noting down all the useful information freely provided and making good use of it. Why shouldn't they? Therefore it might just be a good idea to correspond by e-mail on this topic, with colleagues in other language pairs (or at least the opposite one), who are not your direct competitors.
Astrid
| | | | | perception of word rates among clients | Mar 17, 2010 |
IMHO the never ending discussions about low rates offered on translation portals or translators working for such low rates is also very damaging to our industry.
The more end clients keep hearing/reading about extremely low word prices they will start thinking that these prices are normal, especially because of the competition on the translation market that has been going on for months now.
Luckely we are noticing more and more agencies in the Netherlands applying hou... See more IMHO the never ending discussions about low rates offered on translation portals or translators working for such low rates is also very damaging to our industry.
The more end clients keep hearing/reading about extremely low word prices they will start thinking that these prices are normal, especially because of the competition on the translation market that has been going on for months now.
Luckely we are noticing more and more agencies in the Netherlands applying hourly rates instead of prices per word, which I believe is a good thing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:31
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| The other way round | Mar 17, 2010 |
Does it mean we can bring the prices up by discussing them upwards? Hopefully yes.
Looks like it's much easier to make the agencies bring the prices down, anyway. They would just ignore the info which would make them do the opposite.
[Edited at 2010-03-17 11:41 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 20:31
French to German
+ ...
| My hypothesis :-S | Mar 17, 2010 |
Some topics are discussed in fora because there is no reasonable solution that could be negotiated - for example between translators and clients when it comes to rates and prices, if only because clients themselves will say they have no room for negotiation either.
And sorry to contradict some of the above posts, but who originally (I mean in general and some years ago) started talking of translation as a matter of volume, word prices and tight deadlines, etc.(i... See more Some topics are discussed in fora because there is no reasonable solution that could be negotiated - for example between translators and clients when it comes to rates and prices, if only because clients themselves will say they have no room for negotiation either.
And sorry to contradict some of the above posts, but who originally (I mean in general and some years ago) started talking of translation as a matter of volume, word prices and tight deadlines, etc.(iow: as quantities)? Who are those who, even today, will state that they can meet any deadline in any language pair for an apple and a chunk of bread? And who are those who believe such bragging statements?
[Edited at 2010-03-17 11:42 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Astrid Elke Witte
Germany
Local time: 20:31
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | An apple and a chunk of bread when you are too ill to eat them? | Mar 17, 2010 |
The latest very bad migraine episode reminded me not to meet any deadline in return for the above-mentioned items.
| | | | | Some very relevant points here, Rifraf! | Mar 17, 2010 |
Rifraf wrote: I'm one of those agencies following the topics here and to be honest I am wondering lately if we're not overpaying the translators we work with .
Actually, you might be, though not all the time. All too often agencies ask me about my rate per word, regardless of the job. My rates reflect what I can do, not what I'll be doing in a specific job.
Let's say you have a thoroughly reliable technical translator, capable of providing an accurate and well-written translation of a technical proposal for some state-of-the-art industrial automation system. S/he is relatively expensive, but definitely offers a great cost/benefit ratio for what's at stake in this case.
However if you use that same translator for a simple customer complaint on some bad service they had from a company, it's definitely an overkill, and you may be wasting money.
Unless you are fully familiar with both source/target languages, and therefore can accurately select adequate translators for each job, it's your risk. Either you are better safe than sorry, so you use high quality translators all the time, or you risk losing face and money now and then upon getting work redone, for having gone overboard on the cheap side.
One such example in another setting is the "It's a Sony!". They mean their products are more expensive, but you'll never regret having bought any of them. Their cheaper competitors (I won't mention brands) are a lottery: some might be even better than Sony, while others may be so bad that you'll want to replace them ASAP.
Whenever an agency offers overly low rates, specifically less or up to half my usual rates (which are on the market average for my pair/level), I emphatically suggest they use free machine translation, as this will leave more money in the budget, in order to have them redone from scratch by a pro, if necessary.
Now and then a rather desperate agency hires me to redo cheap human translation (CHT) in a rush. I've seen these results. The overall quality is comparable to free MT because though the quantity of translation flaws in CHT is slightly lower than MT, these flaws are not consistent throughout the text.
So it's a matter of developing a list of reliable translators for each pair (and subject area, if it's the case), and treating them well, to keep them always willing to fulfill your needs.
Rifraf wrote:
So many translators are disclosing vital information regarding pricing/editing etc and are indeed also sharing information on rates or even dislosing other important information about their work ethics or procedures.
Why not? The reasons a translator could have to hide such information would be:
a) If their price is too high for the value they offer;
b) if their work ethics or procedures are despicable.
Rifraf wrote:
I also find it sometimes unbelievable to read to what length translators on this forum will go to help their colleagues, who are in fact at the same time their rival competitors. So many questions asked on this forum are undoubtedly from absolute novices to the translation business, yet they receive crucial answers to help them on their way. Nobody seems to care that these wannabee translators are messing up the translation market, since anyone can call himself a translator and start a business.
A few wannabes will eventually make it to the top; others are expected to drop out on their own failure. This generous help may be explained by the fact that all successful translators once were wannabes too, and someone lent them a hand. Jews call it ledor vador, "from one generation to another". They are sort of paying back the help they had at the outset of their careers.
Rifraf wrote:
However, for the people asking others what rates they are applying, it is in fact a good question: they are in competition, and if you know how much your colleague is asking you can stay below this rate to stay competitive and this will drive the prices down even further I'm afraid!
It's a double-edged sword. Knowing a colleague's rates may also lead to the thought: If that jerk is charging so much, I can certainly set my rates higher."
So it's not a matter of setting prices lower and lower, but each translator setting their rates in accordance to the value they offer in the marketplace. Of course, some jobs require any translation, the cheaper the better. This is where I recommend using free MT. Other translation jobs require a specialist in some specific area; obviously as cheap as possible, though it is a known fact that hiring such a translator below a certain price level is like buying a ticket to disaster.
What puzzles me is that everyone asks about, and every translator states, their specialty areas. I feel like being the only one who bluntly declares (4th paragraph in http://www.lamensdorf.com.br/services.html ) my non-specialties. I don't translate technical medicine nor accounting/finance. If it's targeted to the general public, okay, I'm part of it!
Using a translator outside their knowledge domain is foolish. Using a translator in their specialty is a sound business decision. And using a specialized (ergo more expensive) translator for nonspecialized work is like buying insurance for success. Nobody can become a good specialized translator without being a very good translator overall.
| | | | | My point exactly | Mar 17, 2010 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Does it mean we can bring the prices up by discussing them upwards? Hopefully yes.
Many a true word spoken in jest, and all that. General widepread knowledge of, and discussion of, prices is not what determines their level.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:31
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Astrid Elke Johnson wrote:
Firstly, you are in competition with some of the colleagues whom you are asking. It is not really a good idea to ask your competitors how much to charge.
Yes but *why* is it not a good idea to ask your competitors how much to charge? Simply saying it isn't a good idea doesn't really help anyone. It's just your opinion, and an unsubstantiated one at that. Tell us *why* you think it is not a good idea.
Secondly, some translation agencies do read these forums, and any information they obtain may help to drive our rates downwards.
Or upwards? Why not upwards? Also, correct me if I misunderstand (the forum rules require that I add this little phrase), but it seems to me that your logic is that if agencies remain in the dark about rates then they are less likely to pay lower rates. Why do you think is that?
However, please try to refrain from directly asking about exact prices.
Somewhat off-topic, but: this reminds me of a useit.net post in which the customer asks the car salesman what the car costs, and he says "I'll give you a hint -- it's an even number".
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Astrid Elke Witte
Germany
Local time: 20:31
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hi Samuel,
As Rifraf already said, specifying your rates in front of your competitors means that they may start marginally undercutting you. As for new translators - innocently or not - boldly asking us in the forum what we charge, I believe this is not the custom in other lines of business, they would be especially the ones who would try to undercut us (logically speaking), and each person really needs to work out their own profit and cost plan to make being in business feasible.... See more Hi Samuel,
As Rifraf already said, specifying your rates in front of your competitors means that they may start marginally undercutting you. As for new translators - innocently or not - boldly asking us in the forum what we charge, I believe this is not the custom in other lines of business, they would be especially the ones who would try to undercut us (logically speaking), and each person really needs to work out their own profit and cost plan to make being in business feasible.
It is also logical, I think, that agencies reading, on a daily basis, exactly who charges what would be able to optimise their costs accordingly. Certainly I would.
Astrid ▲ Collapse
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Astrid Elke Johnson wrote:
... Questions, for example, regarding the percentage of the translation price to take to determine the proofreading price are OK. However, please try to refrain from directly asking about exact prices.
Astrid, are you suggesting that people refrain from mentioning rates (because you don't think it's a good idea) or ordering them not to (presumably with your moderator hat on), as your wording certainly suggests?
I was under the impression that it was in any case against the forum rules to discuss specific rates, but if that's the case, I would have expected you to cite the relevant rule in your first post. As it is, it comes across as a high-handed command from someone in a position which, as I understand it, gives its holder no authority to command anything at all.
[Edited at 2010-03-17 13:17 GMT]
| | | | Astrid Elke Witte
Germany
Local time: 20:31
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Sorry for the confusion | Mar 17, 2010 |
Hello Marie-Hélène,
There is not a rule that could be cited, however it did seem to be an implicit rule at one time - or let's say an implicit rule of business ethics.
My initial post was deliberately written in that style in an attempt to deter the constant stream of newcomers to the profession who appear to think that determining their exact rates is as easy as just boldly coming and asking those of us with experience. It has never been this easy in any other profes... See more Hello Marie-Hélène,
There is not a rule that could be cited, however it did seem to be an implicit rule at one time - or let's say an implicit rule of business ethics.
My initial post was deliberately written in that style in an attempt to deter the constant stream of newcomers to the profession who appear to think that determining their exact rates is as easy as just boldly coming and asking those of us with experience. It has never been this easy in any other profession, and still is not. I had, at the time, seen yet another thread of this kind appear, and it seemed to be one too many.
I have no particular objection if this has since sparked a general discussion on how we should be proceeding, in order not to jeopardise our profession or income. That is, anyway, a very pertinent subject for discussion.
Astrid
[Edited at 2010-03-17 13:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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