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tend à la domination d’une logique économique
brique plâtrière

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

dissout en lui les traces d\'une expérience authentique

English translation:

dissolved any trace of authentic experience

Added to glossary by veratek
Dec 11, 2012 14:48
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

dissout en lui les traces d'une expérience authentique

French to English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
à leurs yeux*, l'industrie culturelle fixe de manière exemplaire la chute de la culture dans la marchandise. La transformation de l'acte culturel en valeur marchande abolit sa puissance critique et dissout en lui les traces d'une expérience authentique.

*Adorno et Horkheimer
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 dissolved any trace of authentic experience
4 +3 rids it of any trace of authentic experience
5 dissolves any trace of authentic experience it might possess
3 eliminates any/the traces of authentic experience contained in it

Discussion

veratek (asker) Dec 12, 2012:
@John - Yes, thanks.
John Holland Dec 12, 2012:
@veratek It is quite possible that I misunderstood you!

For me, it's really a question of the kind of document this is and its ultimate destination. If it's an article that will undergo peer review for a journal, then I believe it would be a sign of good scholarship to include a reference to the existing translation, even if you decide to alter it.
veratek (asker) Dec 12, 2012:
@John The excerpt might have given you that impression. The reference to Mattelart is right next to it in the text, so I think someone would need to be quite malicious to say the author was trying to deliberately plagiarize. I don't know if you also misunderstood what I said.
John Holland Dec 12, 2012:
@veratek In this case, according to your posted question, the second sentence doesn't seem to be a paraphrase but instead a direct, verbatim, citation of a published work.

If this is an academic text, including a such a citation without a reference would be considered plagiarism. Sometimes this extends to paraphrases, as well. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#Academia

If nothing else, I think it's important to respect the work of other translators by acknowledging the existing translation, even if you want to change it. You can always add a translator's note.
veratek (asker) Dec 12, 2012:
Thanks for the translation reference. This text contains many paraphrased references, including of other paraphrased references, so it wasn't clear to me if there was a translation already. It's all unpublished. Personally, I prefer "eliminates" to "rids" or "dissolves." I think of dissolve and I think of liquids, even if it's the literal translation. I'm also not so keen on "Putting a price-tag."
John Holland Dec 12, 2012:
Existing translation This is a quote from Armand et Michèle Mattelart's Histoire des théories de la communication (1995), translated in 1998 as Theories of Communication: A Short Introduction. Please see my answer below for page references to the French and English versions.
Steven Fung Dec 12, 2012:
I'm really not sure about 'drowns'. Would you 'drown a trace'?? Sounds like overkill to me. Since we do say 'dissolve parliament' for example, I suggested keeping it, to do justice to the liquid metaphor, while at the same time remaining close to the source.
B D Finch Dec 12, 2012:
@claude-andrew I like your suggestion of "drowns". Your point about positive and negative imagery is also a good one. Clearly "authentic experience" is seen as good and getting rid of it as bad (except from the point of view of someone marketing a substitute for authentic experience). "Rids" and "drowns" both suggest a stronger form of agency than "dissout". However, I think that is quite appropriate to the context.
claude-andrew Dec 12, 2012:
dilution To keep the aqueous image of dissout, I might suggest BD's answer, replacing "rids it of"" with "drowns:
drowns any trace of authentic experience
Melissa McMahon Dec 11, 2012:
Existing translation? There are a lot of published translations of Adorno and Horkheimer. They might not be the best ones, but if your own translation is for an academic context you should try to reference an existing version (even if only to indicate the modification). What work is the quote from?
veratek (asker) Dec 11, 2012:
@ Claude I think "dissout" alone here is neutral; it's the entire phrase that's negative.
claude-andrew Dec 11, 2012:
Point to consider I'd like to suggest considering BD's "rids" (=> and that's a good thing, like getting rid of pests) and an alternative: "deprives" (=> and that's a bad thing). What do you all think? Does "dissout" in this context have negative or positive connotations?

Proposed translations

+3
19 hrs
Selected

dissolved any trace of authentic experience

This is a citation from Armand et Michèle Mattelart's Histoire des théories de la communication (1995):

"L'industrie culturelle fixe de manière exemplaire la faillite de la culture, sa chute dans la marchandise. La transformation de l'acte culturel en valeur marchande abolit sa puissance critique et dissout en lui les traces d'une expérience authentique."

That's on p. 42 of the 3rd Edition, published by La Découverte in 2004.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=rlNbHQAACAAJ&dq=Histoire des...

Here is how the citation appears in the published translation of this work (Theories of Communication: A Short Introduction, translated by Susan Gruenheck Taponier and James Cohen):

"The culture industry inevitably brought about the bankruptcy of culture, reducing it to a mere commodity. Putting a price-tag on a cultural act abolished its critical power and dissolved any trace of authentic experience it might possess."

That's p. 61of the paperback edition, published by SAGE Publications in 1999.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=Ua0NMm3GFk0C&printsec=frontc...

Citations can also be verified on Amazon.com.

It is general academic practice that a direct citation of a published translation not be retranslated unless there is a specific reason to do so (which should be explained in a translator's note or otherwise noted as "translation modified").

Please also see http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/social_science_s...
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : You are, of course, right about existing published translations. The Asker really should say whether she is trying to produce a new translation or has simply not looked for any existing, published translation.
35 mins
Thank you, B D Finch. Another difficulty is that the quotation appears in two different KudoZ questions but the original author is only identified in one of the two (i.e., not here). See: http://ur1.ca/c00t1
agree Steven Fung : Yes, the asker should either go with this (and reference it) or come up with an original translation.
39 mins
Thank you, steven fung. I'd think a reference is in order in any case, especially if the source document is a scholarly article or book.
agree katsy : with BD and steven
47 mins
Thank you, katsy
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you."
16 mins

eliminates any/the traces of authentic experience contained in it

a suggestion.
Something went wrong...
+3
25 mins

rids it of any trace of authentic experience

Another suggestion.
Peer comment(s):
agree Evans (X)
55 mins
Thanks Gilla
agree Victoria Britten
5 hrs
Thanks Victoria
agree nweatherdon
9 hrs
Thanks NJW
neutral Steven Fung : I find 'rids' somewhat prosaic and inelegant for the context here and does not do justice to the liquid metaphor.
18 hrs
This is philosophy rather than literature and I think that "rids" expresses Adorno's and Horkheimer's intended meaning, which is about the violence done to culture by its commodification.
Something went wrong...
6 hrs

dissolves any trace of authentic experience it might possess

Another possibility, which preserves the 'liquid metaphor' of the original.
Peer comment(s):
neutral B D Finch : But, authentic experience is an attribute of culture, so the suggestion of doubt about that by "it might possess" seems wrong and is certainly not in the source text.// I suggest you read some works by Adorno or Horkheimer to understand this.
11 hrs
Your interpretation (authentic experience is necessarily an attribute of culture) is much stronger than what the source text actually implies. Note the distinct lack of a copula verb in that sentence. Cultural productions can be anything but 'authentic'.
Something went wrong...
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