Sep 23, 2020 15:36
3 yrs ago
60 viewers *
French term
charge solidaire et indivisible
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Contract(s)
"SOLIDARITE ET INDIVISIBILITE
Les obligations résultant du présent bail pour le preneur constitueront pour tous les ayants cause et ayants droit et pour toutes personnes tenues au paiement et à l'exécution une charge solidaire et indivisible.
Dans le cas où les significations prescrites par l’article 877 du Code civil deviendraient nécessaires, le coût en serait payé par ceux à qui elles seraient faites."
The issue here, for me, is the word charge: in an ordinary dictionary I find one definition to be "responsibility". But the question is, in a legal context, does it actually mean "a liability"? Bridge has an entry for charge, but none of the examples relates to this usage. Ditto in the archives here: nothing.
Maybe it is something like an "obligation", "duty" or "responsibility". The phrase already uses the word obligation, however, so we may perhaps surmise that a meaning other than "obligation" is intended... or perhaps the drafter just used a different word for the fun of it, to tickle our fancy?
The Trésor de la Langue Française has a section on it : http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?11... (search "DR. CIVIL").
Les obligations résultant du présent bail pour le preneur constitueront pour tous les ayants cause et ayants droit et pour toutes personnes tenues au paiement et à l'exécution une charge solidaire et indivisible.
Dans le cas où les significations prescrites par l’article 877 du Code civil deviendraient nécessaires, le coût en serait payé par ceux à qui elles seraient faites."
The issue here, for me, is the word charge: in an ordinary dictionary I find one definition to be "responsibility". But the question is, in a legal context, does it actually mean "a liability"? Bridge has an entry for charge, but none of the examples relates to this usage. Ditto in the archives here: nothing.
Maybe it is something like an "obligation", "duty" or "responsibility". The phrase already uses the word obligation, however, so we may perhaps surmise that a meaning other than "obligation" is intended... or perhaps the drafter just used a different word for the fun of it, to tickle our fancy?
The Trésor de la Langue Française has a section on it : http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?11... (search "DR. CIVIL").
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +4 | joint and several liability |
Francois Boye
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| 2 | a joint and and non-severable (mutually enforceable) covenant |
Adrian MM.
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| 3 -2 | solid and inseparable charge |
Lisa Rosengard
|
Proposed translations
+4
2 hrs
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
36
Selected
joint and several liability
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several_liability
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Note added at 4 hrs (2020-09-23 19:44:09 GMT)
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Where two or more persons are liable in respect of the same liability, in most common law legal systems they may either be:
jointly liable, or
severally liable, or
jointly and severally liable.[1]
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Note added at 4 hrs (2020-09-23 19:44:09 GMT)
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Where two or more persons are liable in respect of the same liability, in most common law legal systems they may either be:
jointly liable, or
severally liable, or
jointly and severally liable.[1]
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: It doesn't say anything about several, which means separate. It's indivisible.
36 mins
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I did not invent this idiomatic expression//see above!
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: So how do you translate "charge" which is what Asker really needs to know? (with specific relationship to a lease) // that doesn't answer my question but I agree the joint and several liability is involved
4 hrs
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charge = responsabilité in French
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| agree |
Eliza Hall
: Joint & several is 100% correct. I would slightly rephrase the original -- see discussion.
21 hrs
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Thanks!
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| neutral |
B D Finch
: As you note, you "did not invent this idiomatic expression", but that does not mean that it is the correct translation of the source term.
21 hrs
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Thanks!
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| agree |
SafeTex
: I've explained in the discussion why I think this is right
22 hrs
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Thanks!
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| agree |
Cyril Tollari
1 day 14 hrs
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Thanks!
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| agree |
Kallie Translation (X)
7 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
4 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
86
a joint and and non-severable (mutually enforceable) covenant
Running 'scared' on this one, a lease sends me on auto-pilot into covenants - that, in the UK at least, are mutually enforceable, whereas freehold ones, unless complicated cross-covenants, are not.
Mutual enforceability seems to me to come within the compass of indivisibility - all for one and one for all, whereas non-severable would be at direct odds with any joint & several liability element of solidaire.
Mutual enforceability seems to me to come within the compass of indivisibility - all for one and one for all, whereas non-severable would be at direct odds with any joint & several liability element of solidaire.
Example sentence:
The validity or enforceability of any other provision herein & any invalid provision shall be deemed to be severable. tmx.com [...] ou le caractère exécutoire de toute autre disposition des présentes, et toute disposition invalide est réputée divis
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
SafeTex
: I'd be interested to know why you said "non-severable" rather than "severable" - in simple English please :)
1 hr
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divisible = severable vs. *in*divisible = non-severable. If that is simple enough for you, besides which you have dodged the 'mutually enforceable' bullet.
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: What has this got to do with covenants? Nothing. It's a lease. It's talking about obligations under a lease. And it's "joint and several"/"jointly and severally" (depending on how you want to phrase the EN translation).
20 hrs
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Yes, leases invariably contain covenants and Eliza ought to know thatr
23 hrs
|
-2
58 mins
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
solid and inseparable charge
The charge is connected with a lease for a tenant. Since 'bail' is a 'lease' (contract by which land or property is rented for a stated time by the owner to a tenant) then 'tenant' fits in the translation sentence instead of 'buyer' or 'taker' (le preneur).
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Note added at 3 days 7 hrs (2020-09-26 23:31:56 GMT)
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https://www.etudier.com/dissertations/Rgo-Final-Devoir/80176...
"La colocation est définie au sens de la loi comme la location d'un même logement par plusieurs locataires, constituant leur résidence principale et formalisée par la conclusion d'un contrat unique ou de plusieurs contrats entre les locateurs et le bailleur. il faut donc comprendre que les colocataires sont un loyer déterminé avec le bailleur. Avec toute chose il est nécessaire de rappeler qu'en vertu de l'article 1202 du code civil, la solidarité ne se présume pas: il faut qu'elle soit expressément stipulée ... De fait la colocation, est par principe une obligation conjointe. il faut entendre que chaque débiteur, donc chaque locataire n'est tenu de payer que sa quote-part du loyer, a priori donc une division par part-virile."
"Flat-sharing (tenancy placement) is defined by the meaning of law as is the very accommodation's location, making (or forming) one's main legal residence, by the conclusion of a unique contract or several contracts between the tenants and property owner or letting agent (lessor). It's thus necessary to understand that tenants pay rent defined and stipulated by the owner. All things considered, one must recall that in virtue of Article 1202 from the civil code, solidarity is not presumed. Instead it must be clearly stipulated and defined ... Flat-sharing, indeed, is principally a joint obligation. One must understand that by each debtor, each tenant, therefore, must only pay his or her own share of the rent in principle, thus, by divisions ."
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Note added at 7 days (2020-09-30 22:00:34 GMT)
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'Solid is (in this sense) is a whole totality', which could be 'solidarity' (a unity of interests, for instance among members of the same class). Where flat-sharing is concerned it refers to the total rent cost, which is a joint or combined responsibility or liability to pay. Often, in such cases in which rent is to be jointly or mutually paid, landlords or property owners may stipulate the rent price for each individual tenant. in so doing they can make sure that each person in the tenancy pays only (and always) his or her own share of the total rent charge. Presumably, the indivisible or inseparable charge is the whole or collective responsibility or liability to cover the rent cost charges of the rented property.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 7 hrs (2020-09-26 23:31:56 GMT)
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https://www.etudier.com/dissertations/Rgo-Final-Devoir/80176...
"La colocation est définie au sens de la loi comme la location d'un même logement par plusieurs locataires, constituant leur résidence principale et formalisée par la conclusion d'un contrat unique ou de plusieurs contrats entre les locateurs et le bailleur. il faut donc comprendre que les colocataires sont un loyer déterminé avec le bailleur. Avec toute chose il est nécessaire de rappeler qu'en vertu de l'article 1202 du code civil, la solidarité ne se présume pas: il faut qu'elle soit expressément stipulée ... De fait la colocation, est par principe une obligation conjointe. il faut entendre que chaque débiteur, donc chaque locataire n'est tenu de payer que sa quote-part du loyer, a priori donc une division par part-virile."
"Flat-sharing (tenancy placement) is defined by the meaning of law as is the very accommodation's location, making (or forming) one's main legal residence, by the conclusion of a unique contract or several contracts between the tenants and property owner or letting agent (lessor). It's thus necessary to understand that tenants pay rent defined and stipulated by the owner. All things considered, one must recall that in virtue of Article 1202 from the civil code, solidarity is not presumed. Instead it must be clearly stipulated and defined ... Flat-sharing, indeed, is principally a joint obligation. One must understand that by each debtor, each tenant, therefore, must only pay his or her own share of the rent in principle, thus, by divisions ."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 days (2020-09-30 22:00:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'Solid is (in this sense) is a whole totality', which could be 'solidarity' (a unity of interests, for instance among members of the same class). Where flat-sharing is concerned it refers to the total rent cost, which is a joint or combined responsibility or liability to pay. Often, in such cases in which rent is to be jointly or mutually paid, landlords or property owners may stipulate the rent price for each individual tenant. in so doing they can make sure that each person in the tenancy pays only (and always) his or her own share of the total rent charge. Presumably, the indivisible or inseparable charge is the whole or collective responsibility or liability to cover the rent cost charges of the rented property.
Example sentence:
Les obligations résultant du présent bail pour le preneur constitueront pour tous les ayants cause et ayants droit, et pour toutes personnes tenues au paiement et à l'éxécution d'une charge solidaire et indivisible.
The tenant's obligations (duties) resulting from the present lease will constitute for all those with a cause and a right, as well as for those with a payment on fulfilling (complying or carrying out) a solid and inseparable charge or burden.
Note from asker:
| Hmmm... sounds like something unpleasant men plant under roads in Afghanistan. |
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: No Lisa, this is a legal term, not two words you can simply pluck out of a dictionary
5 mins
|
| disagree |
B D Finch
: This makes no sense at all!
23 hrs
|
Discussion
I remember having problems with this when I first came across it.
Maybe a wiki definition will help:
Under joint and several liability or all sums, a claimant may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable and it becomes the responsibility of the defendants to sort out their respective proportions of liability and payment.[2][4] This means that if the claimant pursues one defendant and receives payment, that defendant must then pursue the other obligors for a contribution to their share of the liability.
I think that François is right. Even if the debt is "indivisible", the text says "...pour toutes personnes tenues au paiement"
So each person has their own part to pay (several) but liability does not stop there if someone else does not pay. In that respect, the debt is "indivisible".
That's my take on it at present.
Regards
It's just a set legal phrase. The drafter didn't add "indivisible" to "solidaire"; they just chose the set legal phrase that means what they wanted to say.
And you're right, it means it's a single liability, not a single amount of money split into into multiple liabilities. If there are 5 parties who all owe money under such a contract, you can go after the one who's easiest to recover the money from, and he can't say "but there are 5 of us, so I only owe 1/5 of the money!" It's not divisible; he owes the entire amount due.
If he wants to go after the other 4 in court to get them to pay him back, that's his business. But you don't have to sue all 5 of them to get the money you're owed; it's jointly and severally owed by all of them -- you only have to sue one of them to get it all back.
But keeping the original FR syntax doesn't work with the EN "joint(ly) and several(ly)," so instead of making the "obligations" the grammatical subject of the sentence, I would rephrase like so:
FR: Les obligations résultant du présent bail pour le preneur constitueront pour tous les ayants cause et ayants droit et pour toutes personnes tenues au paiement et à l'exécution une charge solidaire et indivisible.
EN: All [insert your translation of tous les ayants cause et ayants droit etc.] shall be jointly and severally liable for the obligations of the lessee that result from the present lease.
That keeps "obligations" in the sentence and lets us avoid an awkward "shall constitute obligations for which the aforementioned parties shall be jointly and severally liable."
I would also add some commas to the EN sentence so it's easier to read. In this case, commas setting off "as well as personnes tenues..." wouldn't change the meaning at all.
I would have thought that "charge" = "burden" here and I get ghits for "burden of joint and several liability"
Here is some explanation
https://www.legalplace.fr/guides/clause-solidarite/
La clause de solidarité est souvent appelée clause d’indivisibilité. En effet, comme les colocataires sont ensemble tenus solidairement au paiement du loyer et des charges, on peut considérer qu’ils représentent un seul et même débiteur.
À ce titre, la clause stipulée dans le bail de colocation est fréquemment intitulée « clause de solidarité et d’indivisibilité ».
But the fact that the drafter has also added "indivisible" means that, in addition, I presume, that this joint and several liability cannot be divided, into multiple liabilities. Either that, or the drafter is a foolish person who repeats themselves needlessly. I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
I'm currently unhappy with this idea of jettisoning the notion of "the obligations arising from this lease shall constitute..." in favour of a catch-all, boilerplate phrase. Again, perhaps the drafter is a verbose idiot, but perhaps not.
I suppose you might be tempted to say "xxx shall be jointly and severally, and indivisibly, liable for the obligations arising from this lease"... but you'd more correctly say "bound by the obligations" or something along those lines.
If parties have joint liability, then they are each liable up to the full amount of the relevant obligation
Solidarité et indivisibilité
Cela signifie que chacun est tenu pour la totalité.
https://www.notaire.be/acheter-louer-emprunter/garanties/sol...
Looks to me like the same thing
I agree with AllegroTrans' comment
So "charge" means evry obligation arising under the lease.
Whilst Bridge et al are good references, I don't think they cover every possible use of a term - in fact in some cases they completely miss out something that is boilerplate
Also it is important to include indivisibilité somewhere in the translation.
Your translation may indeed be what the author intended to mean, but the trouble is that it is a long way from the French: the obligations have disappeared completely from your translation, for example.
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/une-charge-solidaire...