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Explanation: I may very well get blasted by Bill and/or Tom, and I post an answer with a feeling of fools rushing in, but still.
This is what I was thinking of suggesting when I posted my question in the discussion area about what sort of document this is, before Bill weighed in with his explanations. The "first otrosí" is the first supplementary (or additional) request in a pleading, and "Al primer otrosí" has got to be the court responding to it.
Here is a document, headed "Citación", incidentally, which seems to me to illustrate what it means. The person "speaking" here is the Secretaria Judicial del Juzgado de lo Social nº 2 de Logroño, so it's from Spain, but there are similar documents to be found from Latin American countries:
"Respecto a lo solicitado en los Otrosíes: Al primer otrosí, se tiene por anunciado el propósito de comparecer asistido/a representado/a de Abogado/a o Graduado Social a los efectos del Art. 21.2 de la LPL/LJS. y por designado domicilio a efectos de comunicaciones, Art. 53 de la LJS. Al segundo otrosí ha lugar a lo solicitado [...]" http://legislacion.derecho.com/anuncio-373-12-23-julio-2012-...
Tom West gives "supplemental prayer for relief" as a translation of "otrosí", and "prayer" for "request" would be correct, I think.
As I say, they are responses to the points raised in the otrosíes of the pleading. Aren't they?
I'm only referring to this particular translation; "otrosí" can be a cumulative petition in certain circumstances. In this case it is one of a string of requests, applications, petitions, etc., that relate form, not substance. Admitting the case for prosecution, the request for service, etc., are not alternative requests. They are necessary formal requests for the action to take place.
Adrian MM. (X)
Billh and SteveH > alternative heads of claim
20:45 Jun 17, 2013
In my example, heads of claim 2-4 are not mutually exclusive, but cumulative, heads of claim against the First-to-Fourth Defendants. If they are mutually exclusive, then someone has been professionally NEGLIGENT.
Of course an additional prayer in the Spanish system can and often does house an alternative prayer. But to describe an 'Otrosi' as an alternative prayer is simply wrong.
Principal Claim - Please order x to pay me the 1,000,000 pounds he owes me.
(Otrosi) - In the first alternative, please return my power of attorney as I need it elsewhere.
Make a lot of sense to you???
Adrian MM. (X)
Alternative claims.
20:30 Jun 17, 2013
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of alternative claims which can be awarded cumulatively.
This is an actual pleading from the Chancery Division of the London High Court which can award one ore more of the claims:
General category> claims for breach of trust and recovery of trust property.
AND the Claimants claim: 1. As against the First Defendant, replacement of the sum of GBP a together with interest; 2. Alternatively (additionally), as against the Second Defendant, repayment of the sum of GBP b together with interest. 3. Alternatively, as against the Third Defendant, repayment of the sum of GBP c together with interest and an account of the sum of GBP d and payment of the amount found due on a/c 4. *Further or alternatively* as against the Fourth Defendant an a/c of the sum of GBP e and repayment of the amount found due on a/c 5. all other necessary accounts, direction and enquiries. 6. *Further or other relief* 7. costs.
2-4 are not strictly alternatives but additional claims.
The terms Otrosi Digo (and numbered as appropriate)........ and Suplico appear. I translate as I (Firstly, Secondly etc.) Further State that....... and Request that the court.... This is the form in the original pleading.
HOWEVER, the term Otrosi is used when referring to these additional statements and requests as a whole, as in this question. I then use the term
(First, Second, etc.) Additional Request/Prayer as a generic term to refer to the whole. That is why I say the translation will depend on the context in which it is used because in this latter case (as here) it is used in a wider sense than in the original pleading.
If anyone wishes to use this in an answer that is fine by me.
PLEASE NOTE that these are ADDITIONAL requests/prayers to the original main one and are NOT alternatives but are cumulative.
Finally, in this case the court is talking and is dealing with the Otrosi and making a decision or order in consequence.
This is not a comment on the answers. I gave that comment in the correct position and explained ithe answers were wrong. One has now disappeared. The comment is more general and explains how to arrive at the correct answer.
Adrian MM. (X)
Breach of site rule 3.4 again
19:02 Jun 17, 2013
You may well be right, Bill, about the 2 'answers' so far. But taking swipes from the discussion entries ain't allowed.
3.4 The only acceptable means of commenting on another's answer is by using the peer comment feature. Using the discussion area, the answer posting form or the answer explanation box to comment on another's suggestions is not allowed.
two answers so far, unsubstantiated, have been taken from a totally unreliable source which is likely to be a Proz answer. To understand the meaning of Otrosi in this context, which is in a court order not a summons, you have to understand the structure of Spanish court pleadings, in particular Otrosi, Digo, and Suplico, to which this term refers as a whole. I have attempted to explain all this on numerous occasions but the wise and wonderful, most of whom I suspect have never read a Spanish pleading in their lives, tend to go for incorrect answers. If you search the Proz records in years past you will no doubt find my explanations which I really can't be bothered to repeat.
In addition it must be taken into account that the word here is used in a wider sense than in the original court pleading - where it is translated differently. It is a sort of "shortcut" word when used in this context.
But I'm not wholly convinced by any of the answers.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
46 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): -2
IN THE FIRST ALTERNATIVE
Explanation: Further or alternatively - in the first, second or third further alternative - are used in EN High Court etc. pleadings as BillH 'I first further state' will know.
Whether it is used in the US, I'm not so sure.
Example sentence(s):
Billh has put his finger on it: It is not alternative but additional. Anyway the question was closed.
b. *in the further alternative*, if the state of the proceedings does not permit final judgment to be given, refer the matter back to the Court of First Instance
Adrian MM. (X) Local time: 10:01 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 1292
2 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +3
In response to the first supplementary request
Explanation: I may very well get blasted by Bill and/or Tom, and I post an answer with a feeling of fools rushing in, but still.
This is what I was thinking of suggesting when I posted my question in the discussion area about what sort of document this is, before Bill weighed in with his explanations. The "first otrosí" is the first supplementary (or additional) request in a pleading, and "Al primer otrosí" has got to be the court responding to it.
Here is a document, headed "Citación", incidentally, which seems to me to illustrate what it means. The person "speaking" here is the Secretaria Judicial del Juzgado de lo Social nº 2 de Logroño, so it's from Spain, but there are similar documents to be found from Latin American countries:
"Respecto a lo solicitado en los Otrosíes: Al primer otrosí, se tiene por anunciado el propósito de comparecer asistido/a representado/a de Abogado/a o Graduado Social a los efectos del Art. 21.2 de la LPL/LJS. y por designado domicilio a efectos de comunicaciones, Art. 53 de la LJS. Al segundo otrosí ha lugar a lo solicitado [...]" http://legislacion.derecho.com/anuncio-373-12-23-julio-2012-...
Tom West gives "supplemental prayer for relief" as a translation of "otrosí", and "prayer" for "request" would be correct, I think.
As I say, they are responses to the points raised in the otrosíes of the pleading. Aren't they?
Charles Davis Spain Local time: 10:01 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 1379
peer agreement (net): -2
