May 9, 2019 13:29
5 yrs ago
5 viewers *
English term
Jordan
Professional Writer and Translator
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: Arabic to English, English to Arabic, English
both of whose
English
Social Sciences
History
A man had two wives and three children. One of the children was from the first wife, while the others were from the second wife.
The sentence I need help with is similar to the following:
His sons were Fred (whose mother was Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both of whose mother was Barbara Applebee).
"Both of whose" sounds extremely awkward to me, and the more I look at it, the more I am losing perspective.
Is there a more correct way to put this?
The sentence I need help with is similar to the following:
His sons were Fred (whose mother was Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both of whose mother was Barbara Applebee).
"Both of whose" sounds extremely awkward to me, and the more I look at it, the more I am losing perspective.
Is there a more correct way to put this?
Responses
+1
56 mins
Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
Hong Kong
Excellence is a basic requirement.
Native in: Chinese (Variants: Cantonese, Traditional) , English
Works in: Chinese to English, English to Chinese, Japanese to Chinese, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
12
Selected
Born to/by
His sons were Fred (born to Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both born to Barbara Applebee).
or
His sons were Fred (by Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both by Barbara Applebee)
Unless there is a reason to keep the sentence structure that way, however, you're even more likely to find it phrased this way:
He had a son, Fred, with/by Mary Smith, and two sons, George and Bob, with/by Barbara Applebee
or:
He had a son with Mary Smith, Fred; and two sons with Barbara Applebee, George and Bob.
or even:
He had three sons: Fred, by Mary Smith; and George and Bob, by Barbara Applebee.
or
His sons were Fred (by Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both by Barbara Applebee)
Unless there is a reason to keep the sentence structure that way, however, you're even more likely to find it phrased this way:
He had a son, Fred, with/by Mary Smith, and two sons, George and Bob, with/by Barbara Applebee
or:
He had a son with Mary Smith, Fred; and two sons with Barbara Applebee, George and Bob.
or even:
He had three sons: Fred, by Mary Smith; and George and Bob, by Barbara Applebee.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
B D Finch
: Except for your third attempt, where the punctuation is wrong. That version might work better in speech than in writing.
1 day 8 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Many thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions. The punctuation in the sentence I posted is super-awkward, which perhaps added to my inability to see things clearly after a rather long day (week) of work, but I think I will be using "born to" after I clean up that issue. Many of the other suggestions were very good, however."
+5
34 mins
Charles Davis
Spain
Spain
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
Spain
Related KudoZ points
:
52
both of them sons of... / both of whom were sons of...
Peter's suggestion covers it, but if you would prefer to preserve the same basic syntax I think you'll have to turn it round and do it like this. You could put "children" or "offspring" instead of "sons".
I'm sure "both of whose mother" doesn't work. In that construction "both" has to refer to what comes after "whose" (e.g., "both of whose sisters", two sisters, both of these sisters); it can't refer to the person or persons corresponding to "whose" (i.e., to the possessor).
I'm sure "both of whose mother" doesn't work. In that construction "both" has to refer to what comes after "whose" (e.g., "both of whose sisters", two sisters, both of these sisters); it can't refer to the person or persons corresponding to "whose" (i.e., to the possessor).
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: You could also say "and George and Bob, whose mother was". The sentence is badly written.
11 mins
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Yes, I think that would work and would be neater. You should post it separately!
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| agree |
Nazim Taghiyev
19 mins
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Thanks, Nazim :-)
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| agree |
Tina Vonhof (X)
1 hr
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Thanks, Tina :-)
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| agree |
Ella Finn
1 hr
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Thanks, Ella :-)
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| agree |
B D Finch
1 day 28 mins
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Thanks, Barbara!
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12 mins
Peter Szekretar
France
France
France
Quality oriented work
Native in: Hungarian 
Works in: English to Hungarian, French to Hungarian, Hungarian to English, and 6 more.
their (see explanation)
The sons were Fred (his mother was Mary Smith), George and Bob (their mother was Barbara Applebee).
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Note added at 48 mins (2019-05-09 14:17:29 GMT)
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Or something like this (if you're ready to modify the sentence a bit more):
"Mary Smith gave birth to his son called Fred, and Barbara Applebee was the mother of his other two sons: George and Bob."
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Note added at 48 mins (2019-05-09 14:17:29 GMT)
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Or something like this (if you're ready to modify the sentence a bit more):
"Mary Smith gave birth to his son called Fred, and Barbara Applebee was the mother of his other two sons: George and Bob."
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
B D Finch
: While you explain it correctly, and your suggested wordings are not wrong, they are poor style and a native-speaker of English would be unlikely to put it that way.
1 day 49 mins
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51 mins
Nazim Taghiyev
Azerbaijan
Azerbaijan
Azerbaijan
Quality above all
Native in: Azerbaijani (Variant: Standard)
Works in: English to Azerbaijani, Russian to Azerbaijani
the mother of both of them was
+1
19 mins
Mark Robertson
Native in English
&
English
Translations by lawyers for lawyers
Native in: English
Works in: Portuguese to English, English
whose
"Both of" is redundant.
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Note added at 1 hr (2019-05-09 14:37:11 GMT)
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The punctuation of the source text is incorrect. The corrected sentence and its non-defining relative clauses, should read:
His sons were Fred, whose mother was Mary Smith, and, George and Bob, whose mother was Barbara Applebee.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2019-05-09 14:37:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The punctuation of the source text is incorrect. The corrected sentence and its non-defining relative clauses, should read:
His sons were Fred, whose mother was Mary Smith, and, George and Bob, whose mother was Barbara Applebee.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Charles Davis
: But if you omit "both of" we are no longer sure who George's mother was; "whose" could refer just to Bob, and George might, for example, be illegitimate or of unknown maternity.
8 mins
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Not if the source text is punctuated correctly.
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| agree |
Sara Gazo
4 hrs
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Thanks
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| neutral |
B D Finch
: Agree with Charles' comment above. The punctuation is a plague of commas and would be confusing to hear when read out.
1 day 48 mins
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Discussion
One popular online example where the Oxford comma is (kind of) needed:
"To my parents, Ayn Rand and God."
In your sentence, however, it has the opposite effect. You say "George, and Bob" but continue with "both of." Do you see what I mean?
I guess I'm making pretty much the same point as Phil.
And why do you need the parentheses at all?
He had one son, Fred, with Mary Smith and two sons, George and Bob, with Barbara Applebee.
Or similar.
E.g.:
https://www.geni.com/people/William-de-Ferrers-4th-Earl-of-D...
Or did I misunderstand something?
Best wishes