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Klägervortrag
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Jun 11, 2020 09:54
3 yrs ago
44 viewers *
German term

Landesjagd

German to English Social Sciences Livestock / Animal Husbandry
...hat die Tiroler Landesregierung die Genossenschaftsjagd St. Leonhard und angrenzende Jagden als ***Landesjagd*** angepachtet. Dadurch konnte eine Zersplitterung des Gebiets in Kleinjagden verhindert werden.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 collective (state) hunting territory/tenancy
3 +1 state-level hunt
4 [combined] regional hunt
3 +1 a single administrative unit under regional government control

Discussion

Chris Pr Jun 13, 2020:
Agree 100% with your choice, Lesley ....because the non-participant interference on this thread has perfectly illustrated your point:

"This is not what Proz is for."

I don't claim total innocence - but I certainly won't lie down and be used as a doormat by these individuals either...

And just for the record, it was me who called the moderator (Murad Awad) to this thread in protest...!
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 13, 2020:
@Lesley My deepest apologies. Shouldn't have taken the bait.
Lesley Robertson MA, Dip Trans IoLET (asker) Jun 13, 2020:
What a bunch of kids! I'm fed up of reading your catty comments. This is not what Proz is for. I'm rather disgusted and closing this without grading - for which I assume a few more unpleasant remarks will be spouted forth. But it's gone far enough. Time to call it day.
Chris Pr Jun 13, 2020:
Long story short, Thomas... ...you have no right to interfere in or manipulate the KudoZ process.
By your own spurious theory, you'd need to issue two further 'disagrees' just for the cosmetic purpose of appearing 'neutral'.
Thomas Pfann Jun 12, 2020:
How many Landesjagden did you find? Granted, you were indeed the first one to state the obvious. Three hours into the discussion you asked if the Landesjagd Pitztal was the object in question. Well done! But I really don't think that you and I were the only ones doing our 5 seconds of research. (Google Landesjagd --> find Landesjagd Pitztal)
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
Thomas We've already long suffered a non-answering, non-participant to the KudoZ process (Vrooman) occupying the discussion area acting as 'judge & jury' over matters.
So we certainly don't need a replacement for that role who's been clearly demonstrated in this discussion to have performed a deception: apropos the true origins of the full term „Landesjagd Pitztal“.
You've been present on this thread from the start, so you're entirely aware of it's development and progress. Not to mention the exact point at which "Pitztal“ was first introduced and by whom.
Thomas Pfann Jun 12, 2020:
Noch bis 50 und dann ab ins Wochenende! There is nothing I hate more than lengthy discussions on KudoZ and people digging in their heels. So now I am not only outraged with you, I am also disgusted with myself.

Thank you, Chris!
Thomas Pfann Jun 12, 2020:
Holla, die Waldfee! As you know, I wrote 'I stand corrected' in reply to you telling me that I was factually wrong about the meaning of 'hunt'. I accepted your correction (not because I thought I was wrong but because I had no intention of arguing about a mere sideshow to this drama).

My next sentence after 'I stand corrected' was 'However, my concern is not the English translation but the German source term Jagd, which some here [Note: 'some here' meaning you, Chris Pr!] seem to have misunderstood. (At least, that's my impression - I might be wrong again.)'.

Up until a few hours ago I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt, Chris, thinking that maybe 'hunt' can be used to describe a 'Jagdgebiet'. I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you are the EN native speaker and I am not. That's why (up until then) I had not agreed or disagreed with any of the answers and I had not taken part in discussions about the EN term 'hunt' but only contributed to discussions about the DE term 'Jagd'. What changed? You added a comment to your answer making it clear that you believe a 'Landesjagd' to be an organisation (which, of course, it is not).
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
So outraged is Thomas Pfann... ...by having his deception revealed that he's decided to retract his own words:
"Ok, I stand corrected."
And issue a 'disagree' instead...
Welcome to 'the team', Thomas...!
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
'The initial context given by the asker'... ...and nobody but me even bothered to research that, Thomas.
The first reference to Pitztal on the entire page here is my own...and you know that exactly!
Can you explain for all to see why you chose to misrepresent that fact...?
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 12, 2020:
SIGH Yes, Chris, your right Chris, of course, Chris, thank you Chris.
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
Untruth number three... ...no reference posted in the 'pseudo-explanation'...and the answer was anyway 'borrowed' from that same individual who humbly conceded that an 'organisation' was indeed the true context.

Sorry, Ramey, but the more you insist the deeper your credibility sinks.
Nothing personal, just an advisory that the predicament is now irreversible...
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 12, 2020:
Ramey researched her answer beforehand 12:38 11 Junehttp://www.face.eu/sites/default/files/austria_en_0.pdf
Thomas Pfann Jun 12, 2020:
Landesjagd Pitztal was known from the outset The initial context given by the asker at the very beginning included this: "Genossenschaftsjagd St. Leonhard und angrenzende Jagden" which is the Landesjagd Pitztal.

And I wouldn't call it crucial context because a Jagd is a Jagd is a Jagd.
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
Is that a team call...? ...to bring in a moderator to delete the lies:
a) Ramey researched her answer beforehand (untrue)
b) 'Pinnochio' Pfann, The crucial context 'Landesjagd Pitztal' was known to all from the outset" (a total fabrication for all to see on this page)
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 12, 2020:
@ Everyone Concerted effort Should the bellicose, insipid atmosphere disturb anyone other than me, please notify the moderators.
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
Oh really...? "Dass es um die Landesjagd Pitztal geht, war von Anfang an klar."

Care to qualify that statement...?
Thomas Pfann Jun 12, 2020:
Below is above Dass es um die Landesjagd Pitztal geht, war von Anfang an klar. Deshalb verwundert die Aussage, die Landesjagd sei eine Organisation, umso mehr.
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
And Lesley also specifically said... "Yes, indeed it's the Landesjagd Pitztal."

Which happens to be a little inconvenient for 'the team'.. ;)

And, adding to Thomas' quote, it's currently as much comedy or farce as playground...
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 12, 2020:
@Wendy Far below in the discussion box, Lesley said UK English was requested for an international audience. Keep well, you!
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 12, 2020:
@Thomas Yes, thank you.
Lancashireman Jun 12, 2020:
How to win friends and influence people ...not
Chris Pr Jun 12, 2020:
KudoZ Rules 3.6 No attempt may be made to influence others' decisions.

Kindly remove your unwarranted comment...
Wendy Streitparth Jun 12, 2020:
Is this for AE or BE? I'd go with Ramey, except that I think 'state hunting ground' would be more normal in BE. And I would also omit the 'collective'!
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
"Guilty as charged" ...nothing further to add M'lord...!
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
@Chris Pr I did both. Guilty as charged. But if I may not read and cite your references, what use are they in clarifying the term in question? I don't understand why that's disagreeable.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Hi Andrew These are both fox hunting clubs/associations, which would not apply to German Jagd (revier) since fox-hunting on horseback is extremely rare here. I only know of foxhunts organized by the various riding clubs once a year. It's more of an exercise in the British discipline as a serious sport.
Lesley's term refers to the hunting territory or tenancy of Tirol as they pooled several tenancies to great one leased collectively by the State in 1949. You can check out the link two doors down. There is no English site for the page in question, Lesley's apparently creating one.
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
"As you can see, I did the research, no problem." ...erm, no you didn't, Ramey, you cited my research instead.

And "Jagdgebiet" was not the question Lesley posted...
Lancashireman Jun 11, 2020:
Jagdgebiet = 'country' (EN-GB only) See how the term is used in this specialised sense here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn_Hunt#Country
and here:
"Our Country falls across the County Durham/North Yorkshire Borders, and is about 20 miles square."
https://www.zetlandhunt.org/

Probably too obscure for an international readership, however.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Of course, I cite your references, they are references meant to help clarify the term in question.
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
Even the audacity... ...to cite my very own reference, as opposed to your own [not quite] 'meticulous research'.
Note to all: Observe the fingerprints of the serial-manipulator Vrooman in this context..!
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
@Chris Pr As you can see, I did the research, no problem. I just thought you may have something on hand and would like to share it. Once more, I appeal to your better nature to discontinue your disparaging, groundless remarks concerning colleagues participating generously here to assist other colleagues. I'm sure you're up to it, you're a clever one!
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Here we go https://www.tirol.gv.at/landwirtschaft-forstwirtschaft/agrar...

Das Land Tirol brachte keine Fläche ein, sondern fungierte nur als Pächterin der mittlerweile 5 eigenständigen Jagdgebiete, weshalb der Name „Landesjagd Pitztal“ entstanden ist.
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
Feel free, Ramey... ...to perform your own research and report back here with the bilingual references supporting the obvious 'guesswork'...
I'm sure Lesley can see through the partisan 'agree' ploy quite clearly...
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Without the snide side remarks, please.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Chris Pr I am referring to the link you posted below. Do you have link for Landesjagd Pitztal? I'd love to read it.
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
'Landesjagd Pitztal'... ...has everything to do with the question and also the overall context intended.
And its English equivalent happens to be totally unambiguous....!
All of which suggests that some cast iron, bilingual references will be needed to support the threadbare claim...
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Derwent Hunt is a fox-hunting organisation and has nothing to do with question here.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F133180
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
Thanks Thomas... ...for your follow-up.
I think some have misinterpreted both of the terms 'Land' and 'Jagd'.
The key was a basic research leading to "Landesjagd Pitztal", where a named entity in this context would be the English equivalent of a 'hunt'.
Thomas Pfann Jun 11, 2020:
Ok, Chris Ok, I stand corrected.

However, my concern is not the English translation but the German source term Jagd, which some here seem to have misunderstood. (At least, that's my impression - I might be wrong again.)
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
Sorry Thomas... ...but the English term is hunt...and not a 'territory'...
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F133180

All 'hunts' are parcels of land allocated to the various organisations which have the rights to use this land...

And factually incorrect is your previous statement:
"A hunt is the act of hunting or the hunting party, but not the location."
It's actually an organisation in the English language...
Thomas Pfann Jun 11, 2020:
Landesjagd Pitztal is not an organisation A Jagd is a piece of land. Here they combined several Jagden to one larger Jagd and called it Landesjagd.

You can spend the weekend at your Jagd without even hunting. You can have a hut in your Jagd. You can be annoyed that a road cuts through your Jagd.
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
Not so sure we're done, Irene...? ...because Landesjagd as in "Landesjagd Pitztal" is an organisation, rather than a territory, tenancy or even a lease...
Also, there is no "State" connotation to an autonomous regional organisation...

Combining::
Genossenschaftsjagd St. Leonhard
Eigenjagd Taschachalpe
Eigenjagd Pichlbergalpe
Eigenjagd Schwarzenbergalpe
Eigenjagd Nachbarschaft Neurur
Teangacha (X) Jun 11, 2020:
@ Lesley Glad you got your answer, Lesley. Have a lovely day! : )
Lesley Robertson MA, Dip Trans IoLET (asker) Jun 11, 2020:
@ Chris Yes, indeed it's the Landesjagd Pitztal. And basically it's for an international audience, but UK English was requested.
Chris Pr Jun 11, 2020:
US / UK audience, Lesley...? And is the object in question ==> „Landesjagd Pitztal“...?
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Hi Lesley Hunters are a very special species. some exceedingly trigger-happy. Glad we could help!
Lesley Robertson MA, Dip Trans IoLET (asker) Jun 11, 2020:
@ Ramey and Irene sorry - no additional context. But the text was written before Corona so that certainly doesn't play a role. But Ramey you have hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned! :-)
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
@Irene this is not about the hunt itself, it's about the territory in which the hunts take place. As in Germany, there are hundreds of Jagdpächters (tenancy of hunt) paying for the right to hunt a given territory. In Tirol, decision-makers have claimed the entire territory as tenants to avoid too many hunters claiming tenancy of a small acreage. I ASSUME then, the hunts will be more organized on a state level and the number of hunters limited at a given time. Maybe due to Corona or due to hunting accidents. Leslie might know that in her text.
Teangacha (X) Jun 11, 2020:
@ Thomas 'Hunt' fits better here, in my opinion.
Thomas Pfann Jun 11, 2020:
fwiw In your face.eu link they translate the 'Jagd' (which is short for 'Jagdrevier'!) as 'hunting territory'.

Like Ramey, I don't think 'hunt' on its own works. A hunt is the act of hunting or the hunting party, but not the location. 'Game preserve' might be another possibility.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Teamwork! works well. Have a good one, Irene.
Unfortunately 'country hunt' wouldn't work in English, as it refers to the terrain. Landes = region/state in this context. Tirol pooled the tenancy rights for hunting in this region. It's about the tenancy (Pacht) and not the hunt itself. We could use Björn here, the research whizkid.
Teangacha (X) Jun 11, 2020:
@Ramey Thank you! That is where I was trying to direct Lesley. : )
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Hey Leslie Maybe this is of some assistance?http://www.face.eu/sites/default/files/austria_en_0.pdf

Proposed translations

+1
58 mins

state-level hunt

It's a state-level hunt. Apparently, hunting is governed by the respective state law in Austria, not federal law.
Peer comment(s):
agree Teangacha (X) : You and Ramey are completely correct here. : )
5 mins
Thanks, Irene.
neutral Ramey Rieger (X) : Your suggestion implies the entire state goes out to hunt. Scary!
25 mins
That's a bit of a stretch. But I can't say you don't have imagination
neutral Lancashireman : Sorry to see you put in detention with the rest of class, Michael.
2 days 9 hrs
Something went wrong...
+3
1 hr

collective (state) hunting territory/tenancy

Thomas is right, this is referring to a hunting territory encompassing a larger area that is usually controlled by smaller Jagdpächter (hunting grounds tenancy)
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : Bang on
6 mins
I'm HIT!
neutral Michael Martin, MA : No need to squeeze everything you know about a term into its translation, Ramey. The German term is short for a reason. At least, get rid of "collective", which only muddles the water further in English.
29 mins
The German is short because that's the trend. It only covers what German native speakers will understand, not what English-speakers can grasp.
agree Björn Vrooman : Using a monolingual dictionary does wonders sometimes: "[Wald]revier mit zugehörigem Wildbestand" https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Jagd Exactly what they describe at: https://www.tirol.gv.at/landwirtschaft-forstwirtschaft/agrar...
3 hrs
Wild thing!
agree John Speese : Definitely a tough term, as there is no exact equivalent, at least not in the USA. I've heard the term Jagdrevier in Germany.
3 hrs
Run through the jungle?
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

[combined] regional hunt

Where [combined], if required, could be substituted by many synonyms...

"Landesjagd Pitztal“ obviously has no 'state' connotations, only the state of Tyrol leasing the actual land.
NB: There are examples posted already confusing "Landesjagdveband", which is not the same thing as a "Landesjagd" around Pitzval.

"Mit Beschluss der Landesregierung vom 21. Juni 1949 wurde vereinbart die Genossenschaftsjagd St. Leonhard mit den angrenzenden Jagdgebieten in der Gemeinde St. Leonhard mit insgesamt 22.521 ha zu pachten."

"Das Land Tirol brachte keine Fläche ein, sondern fungierte nur als Pächterin der mittlerweile 5 eigenständigen Jagdgebiete, weshalb der Name „Landesjagd Pitztal“ entstanden ist."

"Mit 01.04.2019 hat das Land Tirol die in der Landesjagd Pitztal vereinigten Jagdgebiete für eine weitere Pachtperiode bis 2029 angepachtet."
https://www.tirol.gv.at/landwirtschaft-forstwirtschaft/agrar...




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2020-06-11 13:40:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A Landesjagd in the context given is an organisation, and nothing at all to do with territory or tenancy... and the international English term for such would be a hunt.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 9 hrs (2020-06-12 18:57:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And 'hunting club /association' would also be fine, if the need arises to broaden the term out somewhat...?
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 12 hrs

a single administrative unit under regional government control

The Austrian province of Tyrol has merged Genossenschaftsjagd St Leonhard with adjoining hunts to form a single administrative unit under regional government control in a move aimed at preventing further fragmentation.
(218 chars with spaces)

Die Tiroler Landesregierung hat die Genossenschaftsjagd St. Leonhard und angrenzende Jagden als Landesjagd angepachtet. Dadurch konnte eine Zersplitterung des Gebiets in Kleinjagden verhindert werden.
(200 chars with spaces)

The source text has three instances of Jagd. English abhors repetition.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2020-06-12 22:54:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Recount: It's actually four!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2020-06-13 12:57:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"What a bunch of kids"? I'm afraid that, with indiscriminate remarks of this kind, you lower yourself to the level of those you condemn, Lesley.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 9 hrs (2020-06-13 19:12:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

How I might have phrased it: “Well, what a heated debate this has been! Without wishing to point the finger at any individual or to issue any blanket condemnation, I think my best option is to close the question and spare us all any further e-mail notifications. I know that there is an option to turn these off, but I can’t resist the temptation to read them! I won’t be selecting any of the answers here today, as I have formulated my own solution, namely […….]. Thank you once again to all contributors for your help.”
Peer comment(s):
neutral Chris Pr : "..angrenzende Jagden.." + "adjoining hunts" = an unorthodox agree, for which I'm eternally grateful...!
2 hrs
agree Ramey Rieger (X) : Thank you for the sanity.
1 day 8 hrs
Cool cats
Something went wrong...
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