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Spanish to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general) / Notaries
Spanish term or phrase:Notario Publico - Costa Rica
In Costa Rica, what is a "notario publico"? Is he known in English as a "Notary Public" or as an "Attorney"? Translating him as a Notary Public does not seem worthy enough... Insight from anyone who knows the system in Costa Rica very much appreciated...
I’m quite surprised by my colleagues answers in that they acknowledge the importance of explaining the difference between a notrary public and a notario público, but none of them offer a term that highlights the difference prima facia. To leave the translation as notary or notary public would be misleading, IMO.
“In jurisdictions where the civilian law prevails, such as in the countries of continental Europe, a notary public is a public official who serves as a public witness of facts transacted by private parties ... and also serves as impartiallegal advisor for the parties involved .... In colonial Louisiana, the notary public had the same rank and dignity as his continental civilian ancestor .... Although notaries still constitute a protected profession in present-day Louisiana, holding office for life provided they renew their bonds periodically in compliance with the governing statute, the importance of their function has diminished over the years to the point that it has been said that a Louisiana notary is no longer a truly civilian notary. Indeed, the trained lawyer is nowadays the Louisiana, and American, counterpart of the continental civilian notary.”
Saul Litvinoff, Louisiana Civil Law Treatise: The Law of Obligations, 296-97 (2d ed. 2001).
Funny, only through this discussion did I find out that you warrant a TN in addition to your answer, that there is a Fla. association of Civil Law Notaries, that it may not be so important to make a distinction in England (although Tom does qualify the type of NP in his answer). Rather than pedantic, I see this as a scholarly discussion on legal translation whereby we can discuss which are the proper tools and techniques to achieve the goal of fitting a civil-law square peg into a common-law round hole.
BTW, I don't have any translation to do since I'm on vacation right now. Cheers!
My point is that "notary public" and "notary" as well as "notario público" and "notario" are synonyms in their respective languages. Once we've established the language and culture (the legal meaning behind the term), we can abbreviate for both.
But although Black says "a state" it's really talking about a common-law state. After all, if there's one thing we are agreed on it's that there cannot be a definition of this that fits both kinds.
I'm fine with "public notary" (although it's a tautology; a civil-law notary is public by definition) and I don't actually object to "civil-law notary", or even "civilian notary" or "Latin notary": they're all accurate. But "notary public" isn't. That's been my point all along.
And sorry to insist, but on the NACLN you'll notice that I mentioned context; the reason it has to be specified there is because a US National Association of Notaries, by default, will be understood to be composed of US-style notaries. But in a document emanating from a Spanish-speaking country (or any civil law country) it's different. But the point is sufficiently made.
I don't think so, because although "notary" can denote either sort of notary, "notary public" specifically denotes a common-law notary. They aren't coterminous as the Spanish terms are. "Notary" is a generic term; "notary public" isn't. At least that's my view. And "notario" vs. "notario público" is not a question of personal style; it's a question of national custom.
Well, for the rest, I hear what you're saying, and for the US you may be right. Perhaps my perspective is affected by being British; in the UK there's no problem because "notary" is a term and a phenomenon that people never encounter in everyday life at all, so there is no misunderstanding because there's no understanding of any kind, really.
Charles, you said: It's quite understandable that there should be a body in the US called the National Association of Civil Law Notaries, because "National Association of Notaries" would be taken by everyone, learned or ignorant, to mean something else and provide an excellent link to back up my contention: http://nacln.org/ . Thank you!
I have spoken with a few judges and lawyers in the past about the differences between a "notary public" and a "notario público" and most of them did not know the difference. I live in the largest city in the US and if they are not cultured about this subject here, legal professionals are not going to be elsewhere in the country save for Louisiana -- and even in that state a notary public today is pretty much what it is in the rest of the US. I believe it is imperative to translate the term in question as civil-law notary and then intermixed with public notary and/or notary throughout the rest of the translation.
It's reasonable, because the context makes it clear what sort of notary we're talking about. Adding "civil-law", as I say, only makes sense when a reader could reasonably understand "notary" to mean "notary public".
That's not the case in Costa Rican papers being translated for a court case in the US. The recipients of the translation will not need to be told that notaries in Costa Rica are civil-law notaries; they will know that already. You might say "well, suppose they don't; better to be on the safe side". You might make that argument about any text in which "notario" appears. But I'm sorry, I really couldn't bring myself to put "civil-law notary" every time just in case, unless there is a realistic possibility of confusion, and it's quite obvious (for what this is worth) that translators don't do so; they just translate "notario" as "notary" unless there's a special reason to do otherwise.
In that previous question Henry proposed translating "notario" as "notary", and I think he was right. Had he done the same here I would have agreed. But apparently just because it says "notario público", he and others add "public", which is quite illogical, because "notario" and "notario público" are synonyms. But still...
As for translating it as "civil-law notary" rather than just "notary", of course I understand the reason and we're all aware of the difference that underlies it. There are times when I would do that myself. If the document is addressed to readers who might be misled by "notary" alone, there's a good practical case for doing so. It's quite understandable that there should be a body in the US called the National Association of Civil Law Notaries, because "National Association of Notaries" would be taken by everyone, learned or ignorant, to mean something else. http://nacln.org/ But it is also not surprising that the body known as the UINL (Union Internationale du Notariat Latin or International Union of Latin Notaries: another possibility for you) should be known simply as the International Union of Notaries. http://www.uinl.org/1/home-page
I agree with you, Sandro, that TNs should be kept to a minimum and used only when strictly necessary. I don't actually think a note is strictly necessary here.
As I have said, I don't think it is necessary to add anything to "notary" when translating "notario", except in very particular cases, and to my mind this isn't one of them. But before addressing that, supposing that it were necessary, I am very dubious about the term "civilian notary". I don't deny that it exists, and the fact that it's in Black merits some respect. But if the addition of something to "notary" is premised on the idea that readers might be confused otherwise, I think the confusion will be much worse if we say "civilian". Someone who doesn't know enough about notaries to know that they're different in Latin America is unlikely to know the term "civilian notary" and will probably assume that it means a non-military notary. I don't agree with Henry on everything, but, like him, I would prefer "civil-law notary", as he said in this previous question where the same issue was aired: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/law_general/394...
Adrian MM. (X)
Paragons of virtue?
06:52 Oct 10, 2014
I agree with Sandro. A translator's note about highly trained professional lawyers mght backfire if the Notary Public turns out to be a beach-crawling lizard, as per hints dropped in my weblink.
Well, an explanation could be helpful, though if this document is to be used in a court case the people who read it will almost certainly know what a civil law notary in a Hispanic country like Costa Rica is and that it is not the same as a notary public. It would be different in a document to be read by members of the general public with no legal training. But a note would do no harm.
Rather than "highly trained attorney" I would say "highly trained legal professional". As a matter of fact notaries in Costa Rica are also attorneys (abogados), which makes it unusual among Spanish-speaking countries, although in Latin America generally quite a lot of notaries also work as abogados (though many do not) and they usually have to be professionally qualified as abogados before they can become notaries. Obviously they have to have a law degree. But in principle civil law notaries and attorneys are different professions, because a notary is a public servant who has to maintain neutrality. Conflicts of interest can easily arise if people perform both roles. So I personally would not describe a notary as a kind of attorney.
It would not be at all out of place to mention that in CR, notaries are Civil Law Notaries, a fact that many people in the US may not be aware of. They may not even know what a Civil Law Notary is. Of course if there is a translated document filed that was done by a CR notary, anyone can see the distinction, because it is a lawyer's work. In the US, lawyers prepare documents and notaries merely confirm the identity of signers.
You could use a note like this: "In CR a Notary Public is a highly trained attorney with a government appointment who prepares and keeps public records of documents".
In response to Tom Thumb, the target audience is the U.S.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
8 mins confidence:
Notary Public
Explanation: "Notarios Publicos" and equivalents in civil law countries do indeed have a higher status than your common or garden notary public down at the library. But I don't know of any more worthy term in English, so I've been translating it Notary Public for 30 years. I think it conveys the sense well enough to the English-language reader.
Norman Terrell United States Local time: 19:16 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8
I’m quite surprised by my colleagues answers in that they acknowledge the importance of explaining the difference between a notrary public and a notario público, but none of them offer a term that highlights the difference prima facia. To leave the translation as notary or notary public would be misleading, IMO.
“In jurisdictions where the civilian law prevails, such as in the countries of continental Europe, a notary public is a public official who serves as a public witness of facts transacted by private parties ... and also serves as impartiallegal advisor for the parties involved .... In colonial Louisiana, the notary public had the same rank and dignity as his continental civilian ancestor .... Although notaries still constitute a protected profession in present-day Louisiana, holding office for life provided they renew their bonds periodically in compliance with the governing statute, the importance of their function has diminished over the years to the point that it has been said that a Louisiana notary is no longer a truly civilian notary. Indeed, the trained lawyer is nowadays the Louisiana, and American, counterpart of the continental civilian notary.”
Saul Litvinoff, Louisiana Civil Law Treatise: The Law of Obligations, 296-97 (2d ed. 2001).
Sandro Tomasi Local time: 22:16 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English, Spanish PRO pts in category: 558
Grading comment
I agree and I used "Civil Law Notary" to be safe. Also the suggestion of my old NYU instructor.
28 mins confidence:
Notary
Explanation: Not "notary public"; that, in my opinion, would be a serious mistranslation. Why? Because as everyone here has already acknowledged, the expression "notary public" in English, specificaly American English, carries a precise meaning, and what it means is something quite different from a "notario público", a common law notary.
I will not pretend that I have studied the Costa Rican notary system in detail, but I am familiar with the Spanish system and have read enough to know that the system in Latin American countries is the same in material respects. One difference is that a civil law notary is called a "notario" in Spain and often a "notario público" in Latin America (including, as we can see, in Costa Rica). But they're the same thing.
Henry is absolutely right that to translate "notary public" as "notario" or "notario público" in Spanish would be highly misleading, and I'm interested to read what he says about Texas. But simple logic surely dictates that the converse is also true, and that to translate "notario público" as "notary public" would be equally misleading for the same reason. The only excuse for doing so is that it is a literal translation of the words, but that's not what translation is about.
The Wikipedia articles on this provide sufficient background info.:
I admit that a common law notary public is sometimes referred to just as a "notary", but it's really the only word available. A notary is quite definitely not an attorney.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2014-10-08 20:56:40 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Sorry; I made a slip at the end of the first paragraph. I meant to say that a notary public is quite different from a "notario público", a civil law notary.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2014-10-08 21:36:55 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Let me put it another way. "Notario público" means a civil law notary. The English word "notary" can mean either a civil law notary or a common law notary. Which it means is usually clear from the context, and that's obviously true here; in Costa Rica it can only refer to a civil law notary. But "notary public" is unambiguously a common law notary and cannot mean a civil law notary. So it cannot mean "notario público". It's an error, and a bad one. When errors are repeated people get accustomed to them, and lose sight of the fact that they are wrong. But custom doesn't make them right.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 3 hrs (2014-10-08 22:29:40 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
I have to say I'm bemused by how this question has gone. I've said enough about why I don't think "notario público" should ever be translated as "notary public". But only in exceptional circumstances will you ever translate it as "civil law notary", even though that's what it is. You might do so if you're translating something about the difference between "notarios (públicos)" and notaries public, but normally you'll just put "notary".
Suppose you have to translate: "Y yo, el notario público, doy fe que...". I maintain that you should NOT put: "And I, the notary public, hereby certify that...", because he/she is not a notary public. But you're not going to put: "And I, the civil-law notary, hereby certify that..." It would be ridiculous, and it's certainly not done. If you want to put "public notary", I suppose you could, though it doesn't add anything. In Spanish-speaking countries notaries are public officials by definition.
Charles Davis Spain Local time: 04:16 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 1379
(US) Commissioner of Deeds; (UK) Notary Public-cum-Solicitor
Explanation: The debate is very informative. But the asker - in the US - should specify the target-readership as there is also a Commissioner for Oaths in the UK/Ireland and rest of the Brit. Commonwealth, including Canada, but not the US.
Also an English conveyancing and probate Solicitor acquaintance of mine - with fluent French - calls him in France: Monsieur le Notaire and neither an avocat nor an avoué that is a label still used.
Example sentence(s):
COMMISSIONER OF DEEDS. Revised Statutes Annotated Chapter 455:12-17. Notary Public and Commissioners law - effective January 1, 2006. Notary Public ...
Explanation: Although they are quite different from a notary in the USA whose qualifications are very slim. A Civil Law Notary such as in Costa Rica and all Spanish-speaking countries is a highly qualified attorney. "Notary Public" is the translation into English, but the other way around use "Fedatario" because to use "Notario Público" in Spanish for a US notary would be highly misleading and it is prohibited in some states such as Texas where I reside.
I would add that in 43 years of practice including translation of large numbers of documents from Mexican notaries, no one has ever objected to or even commented on the equivalent "Notario Público > Notary Public".
Using it in the other direction is of course a no-no.
Henry Hinds United States Local time: 20:16 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English, Spanish PRO pts in category: 5063
