French term
on ne se tutoie plus
I'm not looking for the meaning as that is clear (i.e. to 'tutoie' is to use 'tu' and not 'vous' as a form of address), just any thoughts on how to render it in UK English.
Context: a young man (A) meets the mother of his ex-girlfriend (B), language is colloquial, capitals and parenthesis are mine.
A: VOUZ allez bien?
B: Et bien, on ne se TUTOIE plus?
A: Si, si on se TUTOIE.
B: TU vas bien?
A: Bien, merci et VOUS? (corrects himself) Et TOI?
One thing that already occured to me was to use 'ma'am' as form of address.
A: How are you ma'am?
B: So it's ma'am now?
A: No of course not, sorry.
B: How are you doing?
A: Fine thanks, and you ma'am? Sorry.
This fine, BUT two problems: character A calls character B by her forename a little bit earlier in the scene, so to use 'ma'am' is a bit bizarre, that is also why the use of 'Mrs.' is out.
Also to me 'ma'am' US English or reserved for the Queen.
Obviously the tricks is try and stick as close as possible in phrase length, spoken pattern and content.
e.g.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Nov 25, 2010 16:55: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Term asked" from "on ne se TUTOIE plus" to "on ne se tutoie plus"
Nov 25, 2010 17:01: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
PRO (3): marie-christine périé, Colin Morley (X), Stéphanie Soudais
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Proposed translations
we're not on first name terms anymore?
Otherwise it is very difficult to translate!
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Note added at 51 mins (2010-11-24 19:28:37 GMT)
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I guess you could have him saying something overly formal, like "It's a pleasure to see you again", and then she says, "Well, you've become rather formal", he apologizes etc.
| does not work as first name used as form of address before this dialog starts, see discussion, I didn't make that clear enough. |
| agree |
Simo Blom
3 mins
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Thanks
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| agree |
Irene McClure
: See my comment to Lisa - I think both suggestions would work here.
7 mins
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Yes, good point that using her second name when he has already used her first name could indicate appropriate confusion.
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| agree |
Elizabeth Slaney
: Good way around this. Like it!
6 hrs
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Thanks
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| agree |
Colin Rowe
: Should work, even if he has already used her first name earlier.
13 hrs
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Thanks
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| agree |
B D Finch
16 hrs
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Thanks BD
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| agree |
Catherine Gilsenan
20 hrs
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thanks
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| agree |
David Goward
: As "Barbara/ Mrs XXXXX-ova" is apparently out of the equation, I'd opt for the overly formal route.
21 hrs
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Thanks David - as others have said, I think your suggested dialogue was excellent (and I know very little about subtitling).
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Canada
Word Peace
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, English, French to English, and 1 more.
we aren't on first name basis?
How are you Mrs Smith?
So its Mrs Smith now?
no of course not sorry.
How are you doing?
Fine thanks, and you Mrs Smith? sorry, Jane.
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Note added at 36 mins (2010-11-24 19:14:04 GMT)
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of course this only works if you know the lady's full name
you are right you wouldn't use Mrs alone, HOWEVER the Brits might use Miss (as an equivalent to Sir)........How are you Miss? So its Miss now? etc etc
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Note added at 39 mins (2010-11-24 19:16:34 GMT)
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for example, kids still call teachers Miss and Sir (whether or not they are a Mrs)
| I already thought about using her surname (I do know it) but as it quite particular (Russian) and is not spoken in the dialog at all, and the ear picks these things up, best to avoid the idea that the subtitles are tricking the viewer and render it as closely as possible. |
| agree |
Irene McClure
: And I think this still works even if earlier in the conversation the young man calls the woman by her first name - it demonstrates his confusion as to how he is supposed to address her.
2 mins
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yes, thanks!
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| agree |
Cristina Talavera
: Lisa, sorry, I -obviously-didn't read your explanation just the title!
1 hr
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thanks Cristina, an interesting problem for sure
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United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
so we're back to formal terms are we?
And thou/thee would not work either!!
So why not turn it around?
We're not family any more?
Are you well? (Barbara or Mrs Smith)
Yes - we're not family anymore?
Yes, yes - of course we're still family
So how are you (John or whatever)
Great thanks. And you Barbara - er - mum?
France
there is no s_ccess without U
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, Arabic to English
Discussion
A: I trust you are well?
B: Getting all formal now, are we?
A: Sorry.
B: How are you anyway?
A: Fine. I trust... sorry... and yourself?
In French, no, since as you say, you can use a first name in conjunction with vous. But in English use of "Kate" and "Miss Middleton" is one way of making the same sort of distinction since we can't do it with "you". In other situations we can change the sentence from "Oi, make room, will ya!" to "Would you mind awfully if I asked you to move over a smidgen?"
Comme il y a des finesses de langage que je ne perçois sans doute pas en anglais, il y en a en français et l'exemple du tu et du vous est l'un des plus difficiles à rendre en anglais ou à comprendre pour qui n'est pas parfait bilingue.
A good example of a similar use is 'Breathless' by Jean-Luc Godard, where uses tu and vous (I can't live without 'YOU') to signify this is a new era and we don't care about the traditions of "Vieux France" and doing things "correctly".
At 00:30 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KUVwKp6MDI
Patricia: C'est mieux quand je dits VOUS ou TU?
Michel: Pareil!
Michel: Je ne peux pas me passe de TOI.
C'est la même différence qu'entre le "U" et le "je".
L'un est formel, l'autre est plus familier.
Ce serait une très grande impolitesse de dire "je" à quelqu'un que l'on ne connaît pas.
Tout comme de s'adresser ainsi à son supérieur hiérachique ou à une personne plus âgée sans avoir été invité à le faire.
Il n'y a rien de sarcastique dans ces dialogues.
Un gentil rappel et dire que la situation ne change rien au fait que l'on peut continuer à se tutoyer.
En ce qui concerne le "ma'am, c'est la même chose.
Prénom X qui devient Madame ...
Il y a des personnes qui après avoir utilisé le vous ont beaucoup de mal à passer au tu.
Tout comme d'autres personnes passent par politesse au vous après le tu.
Les délicieuses subtilités du tu et du vous si difficiles à rendre en anglais mais il y aura certainement une réponse plus appropriée qu'une autre, ce que je ne veux pas juger.
J'ai vu beaucoup de fims anglais ou de séries où l'on appelle son supérieur hiérarchique féminin (le boss) : ma'am.
Généralement dans la police.
Il y a aussi des accents ou un niveau d'éducation.
OK, that's enough for tonight, the clock has struck 12.
Goodnight!
I think the idea of confusion is a good one, as several people have suggested.
@Cristina Talavera
It is necessary to really stick close to what is spoken in the dialog, not only because these lines are spoken very quickly and there is little character space in relation to reading speed. But especially when names are used that a non French speaker could identify i.e. she cannot instead of 'Et bien, on ne se TUTOIE plus?' say 'Barbara's fine..' it works in a literary context, but in film where you hear the words spoken (or not in this case) it does not.
In the end, I want to avoid the use of Mrs / surname / forename as they are not spoken in the dialog. It's "easier".
I thought maybe to use "we", as in the royal "we", so something like:
A: Hello Barbara
PAUSE
A: How are we doing?
B: We? I'm not the Queen
A: Sorry, I didn't mean that
B: Are you fine?
A: Good, are we… Are you fine?
BTW classic question, as most people will be aware
How about half&half:
A: Umm, Mrs...uhh Barbara (à la Bourth)
B: Barbara's fine...
maybe tomorrow...
So why are we all discussing this so avidly?
Yes, it's really about the use of tu/vous to signify distance, as often used in arguments in French.
@Cristina Talavera
Yes, it's a good option, but dialog has to more or less have the same characters and it has to work over the 6 lines of dialog.
@Lisa Miles
The young man is not a teen, he's in his twenties.
something with the formula "May I", always more formal than how are you...
A: May I ask how you are today? (I know there's length to consider, but...)
B: No you "may" not, but you "can" if you like -if the script allows for that wonderful English sense of humor...
It's about the use (or non-use) of the familiar pronoun TU
A: Bonjour Barbara
PAUSE
A: VOUZ allez bien?
B: Et bien, on ne se TUTOIE plus?
A: Si, si on se TUTOIE.
B: TU vas bien?
A: Bien, merci et VOUS? (corrects himself) Et TOI?