Patricia Rosas (asker) Mar 4, 2010:

and thanks to Peter, too ... for sharing the Biblical quotations!

Alexandra Taggart Mar 4, 2010:

the words in the Bible shouldn't concern you, Patricia.No one has moral right to criticize them or modernize them, we can quote only, not by extracting bits of pieces, but taking whole sentences."This people" in the Bible is "this nation" - may be you are trying to question the wrong word?

Patricia Rosas (asker) Mar 4, 2010:

Jenni: Thank you for that great explanation!

Patricia Rosas (asker) Mar 4, 2010:

Ildiko: My apologies. Believe me, please, I'm so grateful for people's help. But I felt that no one had addressed this particular sentence, and my client is in a big rush. Also, as the discussion shows, this is a very weird set of questions -- very little consensus!

Ildiko Santana Mar 4, 2010:

when there is no acceptable answer within minutes, it is not going to help if you post the same question three (or more) times, in my humble opinion.. We are all volunteering our time (and mental efforts) on this site, and we are not always readily available to offer each other help. Thank you for your patience.

Peter Nicholson (X) Mar 4, 2010:

this people What is interesting is that the Mark 7:6 quotation is itself a quotation from Isaiah 29:13, which reads as follows: this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me. In Mark 7:6, ‘this people’ takes the singular form ʻhonoureth’, while in Isaiah 29:13 ‘this people’ takes the plural form ‘draw’, and in both cases the plural forms ʻtheir lips ... their heart’ are used. The AV is full of constructions like this, so there was clearly a time when the construction ‘this people’ was perfectly acceptable – indeed, the AV set standards in grammar for centuries to come. Is ‘this people’ acceptable today? I think it is, in a text like the one you are translating, but then I still read the AV every day :-)

Jenni Lukac (X) Mar 4, 2010:

continuation of below: When a collective noun naming a group of persons is treated as singular, it is referred to by the relative pronoun that or which: His crew is one that (or which) works hard. When such a noun is treated as plural, the pronoun is who: His crew are specialists who volunteered for the project. In formal speech and writing, collective nouns are usually not treated as both singular and plural in the same sentence: The enemy is fortifying its (not their) position. The enemy are bringing up their heavy artillery. From the Random House Dictionary.

Jenni Lukac (X) Mar 4, 2010:

My heart goes out to you on this one! I think, considering Peron's populist style, Peter's biblical "this people" fits the original "este pueblo" you have to deal with. I wish that I could give credit to the wonderful person who recently offered this explanation about collection nouns in answer to someone's question but I didn't record it. He (or she) stated: Differences in British and US usage:collective nouns that might explain it all:
"Whether a collective noun, which is singular in form, is used with a singular or plural verb depends on whether the word is referring to the group as a unit or to its members as individuals. In American English, a collective noun naming an organization regarded as a unit is usually treated as singular: The corporation is holding its annual meeting. The team is having a winning season. The government has taken action. In British English, such nouns are commonly treated as plurals: The corporation are holding their annual meeting. The team are playing well. The government are in agreement. When a collective noun naming a group of persons is treated as singular, it is referred to by the relative pronoun that or which: (will continue in another msg)

Patricia Rosas (asker) Mar 4, 2010:

Thank you, Sheila, for answering, and yes, my client's understandable beef is that the original (in Spanish) says pueblo (as in the Argentine people) and she wants to retain the flavor of unity. Peter: Interesting quotation, but isn't it ungrammatical "This people with their" ... I'm not sure if your offering that as an example of people (singular) or people (plural). Does anyone have some aspirin?

Peter Nicholson (X) Mar 4, 2010:

this people This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Mark 7:6

Sheila Wilson Mar 4, 2010:

Hello, Patricia I imagine you are using "people" in the sense of a race or similar - can you confirm? It's certainly a sentence that causes eyebrows to be raised.