Jun 13, 2008 11:55
15 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
la disparition du sujet en peinture par l'abstraction du réel
French to English
Art/Literary
Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
Hi
I just can't find a way to word this without it sounding stilted:
"Certains artistes comme Kandinsky, Malevitch ou Mondrian envisagent *** la disparition du sujet en peinture par l'abstraction du réel *** après une longue maturation intellectuelle et artistique."
Thanks in advance for your help.
I just can't find a way to word this without it sounding stilted:
"Certains artistes comme Kandinsky, Malevitch ou Mondrian envisagent *** la disparition du sujet en peinture par l'abstraction du réel *** après une longue maturation intellectuelle et artistique."
Thanks in advance for your help.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+1
16 hrs
Selected
final triumph of abstracted reality over subject matter in painting abstraction of reality
Hi Sandra. I think what it means is the artists imagined that "subject matter" (rather than individual subjects) would finally, in the great modernist utopia, be replaced by pure content, i.e. "reality" represented through painterly abstraction. In other words you stop asking what the painting is meant to represent, because what it represents is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it IS and how the painter mystically conveys the essence of reality through an abstract language. I think here you can get away with saying subject matter for sujet, to capure the ambitiousness of the idea
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Note added at 16 hrs (2008-06-14 04:32:04 GMT)
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Oops: just knock off the LAST THREE WORDS. "Final triumph of abstracted reality over subject matter in painting". Stop.
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Note added at 1 day16 hrs (2008-06-15 04:28:21 GMT)
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Responding to Mark and Najib: Najib says there is always a sujet. Mark says we shouldn't get too deep. Fair comments. But the point here is that the artists named had a very distinctive conception of the nature of art. The sentence is telling us about their conception. You have to go down a little way if you want to grasp it. Think about what kandinsky said: "The form is the outer expression of the inner content". Read "On the Problem of Form (1912). Mondrian said painting would evolve into "pure representation of the human mind". Subjects/subject matter would be irrelevant. Abstraction meant, as the phrase tells us, the disappearance of subjects. Painting as pure content, pure idea. Utterly without things. Mondrian in particular saw this process as evolutionary, not revolutionary, the "longue maturation intellectuelle". So you are looking at a gradual process by which things disappear from paintings and abstraction takes over. The two artists had different views about the formal and colour relations at work in abstract art, and slightly different views about the "meaning" of the work. Both saw abstraction as a representation of reality, but reality without things. A reality of universal truths, harmony, balanced relations (Mon) or "inner necessity", freedom and "spirit" (Kan).
Sometimes I wish these Proz debates wouldn't go on so. Must try to make the asker's job easier in future (!)
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Note added at 16 hrs (2008-06-14 04:32:04 GMT)
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Oops: just knock off the LAST THREE WORDS. "Final triumph of abstracted reality over subject matter in painting". Stop.
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Note added at 1 day16 hrs (2008-06-15 04:28:21 GMT)
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Responding to Mark and Najib: Najib says there is always a sujet. Mark says we shouldn't get too deep. Fair comments. But the point here is that the artists named had a very distinctive conception of the nature of art. The sentence is telling us about their conception. You have to go down a little way if you want to grasp it. Think about what kandinsky said: "The form is the outer expression of the inner content". Read "On the Problem of Form (1912). Mondrian said painting would evolve into "pure representation of the human mind". Subjects/subject matter would be irrelevant. Abstraction meant, as the phrase tells us, the disappearance of subjects. Painting as pure content, pure idea. Utterly without things. Mondrian in particular saw this process as evolutionary, not revolutionary, the "longue maturation intellectuelle". So you are looking at a gradual process by which things disappear from paintings and abstraction takes over. The two artists had different views about the formal and colour relations at work in abstract art, and slightly different views about the "meaning" of the work. Both saw abstraction as a representation of reality, but reality without things. A reality of universal truths, harmony, balanced relations (Mon) or "inner necessity", freedom and "spirit" (Kan).
Sometimes I wish these Proz debates wouldn't go on so. Must try to make the asker's job easier in future (!)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Mark Nathan
: as a "grander" version of Christopher's answer; although you can go around in circles with subjects and objects, and could argue that some kind of essence of reality was also expressed in figurative art.
16 hrs
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Thanks. Agree, we shouldn't get carried away. One final remark though...
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you everyone, there was some enlightening input here. My understanding of the sentence joins that of Christopher and Architran, "subject matter" being the crux of this. Architran's last comment was very helpful as is his suggestion, so well-deserved points although thanks also to Christopher for another strong suggestion."
7 mins
Dra. Teresa Bernardes
Portugal
Portugal
Native in English
Portugal
Accurate, timely, professional,demanding
Native in: English 
, Portuguese
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English, Spanish to Portuguese, and 5 more.
the omission of the subject in painting through the abstraction of reality
Hope it helps
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Jim Tucker (X)
: it's not omission so much as displacement - hence "disappearance" - abstraction and representation have a hard time coexisting; "omission" implies that the subject is there somewhere, perhaps outside the frame
6 mins
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38 mins
the elimination of subjective painting through the abstraction of reality.
or (...of the real.).
1 hr
making the subject disappear in the paintings by using abstraction to represent reality
by abstract presentation of reality
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Note added at 1 hr (2008-06-13 12:57:58 GMT)
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ooops theIR paintings
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Note added at 1 hr (2008-06-13 12:57:58 GMT)
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ooops theIR paintings
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Susan Nicholls
: I like your use of verbs instead of nouns, but not sure that abstract art "represents" reality as such, perhaps more: using abstraction instead of the representation of reality (which is no longer a good translation!)
3 hrs
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+2
1 hr
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
46
the [traditional] subjects would disappear in the abstraction of reality
...envisioned paintings in which the [traditional] subjects would disappear in the abstraction of reality...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
katsy
: I like this turn of phrase, which echoes the rather 'jargonnant' tone of the original . NB this is not a criticism of your translation!! (au contraire!).
4 hrs
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Thanks, Katsy. Jargonnant, eh? Yeah, that's what I get from the idea that this great revolution will only take place after a necessary period of "maturation." What next? "Progress"?
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| neutral |
architran
: >Yes but couldn't it be "subject matter" that disappears. An altogether grander idea
21 hrs
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"Subject matter" can never disappear, as you yourself point out. Thanks, archi.
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| agree |
Mark Nathan
: I don't think this is a straight abstract/representational contrast.
1 day 6 hrs
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Thanks, Mark.
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+1
1 hr
the replacement of the subject in painting by the abstract idea of reality/abstraction of reality
In this example I've taken "disparition" to mean replacement - the abstract idea of reality/abstraction of reality taking the central place previously held by the subject...
It's another point of view and I hope it helps :-)
It's another point of view and I hope it helps :-)
Example sentence:
Certain artists... conceptualized the replacement of the subject in painting by the abstract idea of reality/abstraction of reality after a long intellectual and artistic development
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
architran
: Replacement is what I was thinking too. If you invert the thing you get the same idea...
20 hrs
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Thanks!
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3 hrs
the demise of representation in painting with the abstraction of the real world
Proposition.
+1
3 hrs
eliminating figurative painting altogether and substituting it with an abstract view of reality
I agree that disparition here is in the sense of replacing it with something else
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: That's about the idea, I think.
52 mins
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| neutral |
architran
: I don't think so. Figurative painting is not the same as subject matter
18 hrs
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6 hrs
reality lost in the abstract
"Abstract"'s meaning being held together by the context.
Discussion