Feb 5, 2008 20:30
16 yrs ago
14 viewers *
French term
monsieur le directeur
French to English
Bus/Financial
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
This may sound very easy. This is found in a letter at the "dear......." part. The letter is addressed to a lady, who is a manager of a department, in the address at the top right hand side of the letter but then the letter says "monsieur le directeur" where I would have put "dear sirs". Is this a polite way of saying "dear sirs" or is there a better formula? thanks
Mme X
Responsable Paie
44 rue de courge
lyon
Monsieur le Directeur,
Pour faire suite.....
Mme X
Responsable Paie
44 rue de courge
lyon
Monsieur le Directeur,
Pour faire suite.....
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +6 | see comments below |
Mark Nathan
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| 5 +1 | Dear Ms. xxx |
Sheila Wilson
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| 3 +1 | Dear Sirs |
Tony M
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| 4 -1 | To the director |
Michael Short
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| 4 -1 | Dear Manager: |
MatthewLaSon
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Proposed translations
+6
14 mins
Selected
see comments below
I would put:
Ms. XXXX
Director
address
address
Dear Ms XXXX,
In the French, if it is addressed to a lady, shouldn't it be "Madame la directrice"? Or am I missing something?
In any case, you would only write "Dear Sirs" if you were sure you were addressing a uniquely male audience, otherwise Dear Madam/Sir would be more correct.
Ms. XXXX
Director
address
address
Dear Ms XXXX,
In the French, if it is addressed to a lady, shouldn't it be "Madame la directrice"? Or am I missing something?
In any case, you would only write "Dear Sirs" if you were sure you were addressing a uniquely male audience, otherwise Dear Madam/Sir would be more correct.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: Dear Sir or Mad Man was the jolly old formula. (Sorry, I jest!)//perhaps a little unfair of 1045 (below). If you don't know the name or sex of the addressee, there isn't much else you can use!
4 mins
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Thanks Carol
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| agree |
sueaberwoman
: Besides, the training manuals for foreign students say that one should use the person's name if known.
5 mins
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Thanks
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| agree |
Sheila Wilson
: Damn that 56k link slowing up my answer as usual
5 mins
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Thanks Sheila - I have high speed internet, its my pedantic brain thats tends to slow me down.
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| neutral |
Jean-Claude Gouin
: Just a little commen, Mark. Whenever I receive a letter addressed to "Dear Sir or Madam", it goes directly in the garbage can ... unopened! I, for one, would make sure I know to whom I'm writing ... We could use "À qui de droit"/"To whom it may concern".
2 hrs
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Yes, when we receive letters like that they are usually rubbish, but "Dear Madam/Sir" might be appropriate if you were writing to a large company and did not know the name of the person.
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| agree |
Transitwrite
: I agree with Mark - if the name of the dept is known you can add it behind Director/Manager of *** Dept
9 hrs
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| agree |
Michael GREEN
: In business letters I have always used "Dear Sirs" if the letter is addressed "Y Company, Address, FAO of Mr X" and "Dear Mr X" if it is to "Mr. X, Y Company, Address"
10 hrs
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| agree |
Assimina Vavoula
11 hrs
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2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "thanks - and for all the valuable comments"
+1
18 mins
Sheila Wilson
Spain
Spain
Native in English
Works in field
Spain
20 years producing 100% natural English
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
64
Dear Ms. xxx
No doubt about it.
The letter is to a woman; her name is known; we don't know whether she prefers Mrs or Ms - only possibility is to default to Ms. xxx
Dear Madam would not be correct unless it's a very formal letter of complaint where the writer wishes to put distance between them.
The original format is very French - but it's not English
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Note added at 24 mins (2008-02-05 20:55:16 GMT)
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The French should certainly use Madame rather than Monsieur, but French widsom seems to be split 50/50 on Madame le directeur and Madame la directrice, much as in similar cases in English (chairman/woman/person springs to mind). Being a foreigner over here I just give a good old Gallic shrug to say 'if YOU don't know, how on earth can I?'
The letter is to a woman; her name is known; we don't know whether she prefers Mrs or Ms - only possibility is to default to Ms. xxx
Dear Madam would not be correct unless it's a very formal letter of complaint where the writer wishes to put distance between them.
The original format is very French - but it's not English
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Note added at 24 mins (2008-02-05 20:55:16 GMT)
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The French should certainly use Madame rather than Monsieur, but French widsom seems to be split 50/50 on Madame le directeur and Madame la directrice, much as in similar cases in English (chairman/woman/person springs to mind). Being a foreigner over here I just give a good old Gallic shrug to say 'if YOU don't know, how on earth can I?'
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: dear Ms ..., but methinks Mark just pipped you to the post. Also, whilst Dear Madam is formal, it doesn't necessarily have to be restricted to letters of complaint
4 mins
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Thanks Carol, I agree that any letter to an unnamed woman merits a 'Dear Madam'
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-1
11 mins
To the director
I would suggest "to the director" or "to the manager"
Another alternative could be "Dear Sir or Madam". "Dear sirs" in my humble opinion would suggest total anonymity which is not the caseIt seems that they haven't updated their template.
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Note added at 32 mins (2008-02-05 21:03:27 GMT)
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When I was at school "Dear Sirs" was the standard title and presumed the reader was male. Still see it in Time magazine (or is it the Economist). It seems that formality needs to be respected in the letter so using the person's surname would be one level down in the register. "To the manager/director maintains the formality of the source text.
Another alternative could be "Dear Sir or Madam". "Dear sirs" in my humble opinion would suggest total anonymity which is not the caseIt seems that they haven't updated their template.
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Note added at 32 mins (2008-02-05 21:03:27 GMT)
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When I was at school "Dear Sirs" was the standard title and presumed the reader was male. Still see it in Time magazine (or is it the Economist). It seems that formality needs to be respected in the letter so using the person's surname would be one level down in the register. "To the manager/director maintains the formality of the source text.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Sheila Wilson
: This is not a correct greeting for an English letter.
1 day 1 hr
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-1
6 hrs
Dear Manager:
Hello,
Why can't use just say "Dear Manager." It's not like it isn't said in a business letter. I've seen it used a lot.
Why stray so far from original here? Yes, you have to leave "Monsieur" untranslated here in English.
I hope this helps.
Why can't use just say "Dear Manager." It's not like it isn't said in a business letter. I've seen it used a lot.
Why stray so far from original here? Yes, you have to leave "Monsieur" untranslated here in English.
I hope this helps.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Sheila Wilson
: "I've seen it used a lot" is absolutely no excuse for us to do it too//Because Dear is followed by a name or Sir etc, not a job title
4 hrs
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Why is it wrong? It's not wrong, Sheila. When I said "I've seen it used a lot", I meant that business letter writing books give it as an possibility. I'm not inventing. This disagree is illogical.
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+1
5 hrs
Dear Sirs
When writing impersonally to a company etc., and especially when it is a rather nasty letter, it is common practice to address the company as 'Dear Sirs' impersonally, even if the letter is actually addressed to a specific recipient.
This is a way of distancing the actual employee concerned from the 'nastiness' of the letter to the company in general.
For example, you might write a letter:
Dear Sirs
We note that our invoice of X/X/XX remains unpaid, and would draw your attention to our standard settlement terms of 30 days...
(but address the letter to Ms Prim, Bought Ledger Dept.)
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Note added at 22 hrs (2008-02-06 19:18:10 GMT)
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The point is, Cherry Pie, that FR is more likely to address an important letter to the Director of the establishment, just as I might address a letter to my Bank Manager, even though I know full well someone else is actually dealing with the matter.
'Dear Sirs' is not really as presumptuously sexist as our excessively politically-correct times might suggest; it is the usual impersonal form of address to a compnay, just like using 'Messrs'.
This is a way of distancing the actual employee concerned from the 'nastiness' of the letter to the company in general.
For example, you might write a letter:
Dear Sirs
We note that our invoice of X/X/XX remains unpaid, and would draw your attention to our standard settlement terms of 30 days...
(but address the letter to Ms Prim, Bought Ledger Dept.)
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Note added at 22 hrs (2008-02-06 19:18:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The point is, Cherry Pie, that FR is more likely to address an important letter to the Director of the establishment, just as I might address a letter to my Bank Manager, even though I know full well someone else is actually dealing with the matter.
'Dear Sirs' is not really as presumptuously sexist as our excessively politically-correct times might suggest; it is the usual impersonal form of address to a compnay, just like using 'Messrs'.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen
: A letter or document is always addressed to the company. One may (and does at times) ask for the "attention of a specific person". The decision as to who deals with the document always rests with the company. (in the middle of the page before the Dear Sir
3 hrs
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Thanks LJ! Yes, indeed, that would be the way to express it, wouldn't it?
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Discussion