| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | How do you deal with friends of friends? Thread poster: Susana Galilea
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invguy 
Bulgaria
Local time: 12:19
English to Bulgarian
| I'd say, it depends very much on the other person's attitude | Jul 11, 2003 |
First off, thanks for the topic, Susana - a good one, indeed
As I was reading the posts, I came to think: why I sometimes willingly help a person, even for free, and sometimes tend to behave like a greedy capitalist bastard
I think the answer is in the attitude of the person who is asking you for a translation.
There are - and will always be - people who really need a tr... See more First off, thanks for the topic, Susana - a good one, indeed
As I was reading the posts, I came to think: why I sometimes willingly help a person, even for free, and sometimes tend to behave like a greedy capitalist bastard
I think the answer is in the attitude of the person who is asking you for a translation.
There are - and will always be - people who really need a translation (or any other professional service, for that matter), without being able to offer adequate compensation. By default I am inclined to help them, even at the expense of my own comfort, as I have been in similar situations myself... and know how nasty it is to feel, almost tangibly, the meaning of the phrase NO WAY OUT.
But I afford to have one condition. One, single condition. And it is not payment. It is *appreciation*.
If I can clearly see that the asker realizes the value of what I'm doing and respects it; if I see that they understand the difference between a professionally done job and an amateurish mess; if I feel that they honestly *believe* they owe me more than just a thankyou - then I sometimes steal from my sleep to do the translation. And I stick to my best professional standards.
Because I know it will be going to the right place, and serving the right purpose.
That is, my work will *make sense*. Now THIS is a thing that matters, if you ask me.
On the other hand, if I see that the asker regards me as a typing monkey getting paid unreasonably high fees for a few hours of happy keyboard clicking a day; if I see that their primary concern is not the worth of what they get but the quantity of what they give; if they are obviously using my friend (and me through him/her) while being convinced that we both are just 'useable matter', then I do switch over to my 'stoneheart mode' (even though it took me quite some years to master this , and I'm still not quite comfortable doing it).
I don't hide away - quite the contrary, I usually take the challenge (if circumstances allow me). But my purpose changes. Doing the translation becomes just a tool. My primary purpose becomes to SHOW that person what things are actually all about. If necessary - making them learn it the hard way.
That's right, standards sometimes need to be enforced. Not the most pleasant of tasks, indeed - but still an important one. Someone has to do it anyway.
(Actually - don't we all?)
Once I just read the translation and recorded it on cassette. Initially I explained to the asker that my time costs money, and the more time I spend, the more expensive it gets. She said she was a great typist and could type it herself, if only she knew the language. I said okay, so be it. Later I understood she had serious problems because of sloppy layout and heaps of spelling mistakes (it was some 3 pages). Plus, I presume it took her at least twice as long to type it than it would have taken me to do the whole translation. Now that person certainly knows better about what's included in translation services.
In another case the askers, while trying to convince me the job could be done for dimes, said they'd want me to "strip my work of all extras". I have no idea how they imagined the 'extras' - they obviously thought that since I had fairly long experience, whatever I did would still be good enough for the miserable 'compensation' they offered. I said okay, I'm leaving out research. They said yep, that's what we meant. As a result, I intentionally left a few of the most critical terms in the source language, and briefly explained to them how to do a search. Cruel, no? A week later a colleague dropped in on his way home: they had called him and said they had the ready translation done by me (mentioning my name), they only needed a few terms. I advised him to charge his max. consulting fees, and so he did. Actually, they finally paid a little more than what I would have normally charged them. Given the time they had obviously spent searching the terms, and the nearly missed deadline, I think that was a lesson alright. As for me and my colleague, we had a few expensive drinks on their money. So there...
I recall an old translator (actually, my first boss) saying to a thrifty client: "You're not paying me for those 15 minutes I'll spend on your half-a-sheet of text. You're paying me for my having studied and practiced that language for 30 years, in order to be able to translate your half-a-sheet of text in 15 minutes."
Okay, I can go on like that for quite some time - as I'm sure most of you could, too But back to my point:
In its substance, this is the problem of appreciating a professional service. Digging deeper - the problem of appreciating intellectual labour in general. The "friends' friends" phenomenon is just one manifestation of it.
MHO. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Same thing in our culture too | Jul 12, 2003 |
My dear Klaus, what you have said applies to all cultures and more so in our culture too. What I did was disrespectful and no doubt about it. But the point arises as to why I did it. It was (and is) because I respect my profession more and I have a horror of being treated as a naive sucker (redundant adjective?). Such a surgery was required in the incident in question. Better that than being saddled with unpaid work. In fact the gentleman was banking on just such a consideration of respectfulnes... See more My dear Klaus, what you have said applies to all cultures and more so in our culture too. What I did was disrespectful and no doubt about it. But the point arises as to why I did it. It was (and is) because I respect my profession more and I have a horror of being treated as a naive sucker (redundant adjective?). Such a surgery was required in the incident in question. Better that than being saddled with unpaid work. In fact the gentleman was banking on just such a consideration of respectfulness to elders and I saw through it. As I told you the need that he said was urgent vanished the moment money was mentioned. I do not regret what I did. See the result. Whoever comes to me with jobs knows pretty well that I do not do it free of cost and let me repeat that I am respected for it.
Klaus Herrmann wrote: Narasimhan Raghavan wrote:
I mean it. I am in this business for more than 24 years and I got rid of such free works in the first year itself. It was a friend of my late father. That's one of the aspects that I like about this site, learning about different cultures. In my country (and considering my age bracket, I guess), such an approach would have been considered disrespectful, to put it mildly. Having said that, if it's a good friend of mine (and I won't even touch how different concepts of the word friend can be), I would let her/him decide whether or not to charge his/her friend. Keep in mind that what works for me in my environment may not work for you. Klaus [Edited at 2003-07-11 16:12] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Did you say 10 pages? | Jul 12, 2003 |
That is a lot to consider doing for free, unless you have nothing better to do, you are paying back a favor to your friend, you consider this a good opportunity to practice translating in this language pair, or you are trying to break into this language pair that you think you are eminently qualified to handle but you have very little to cite as "experience" (the first time I did English monoligual editing, I did it for free). I can think of additional reasons, but doing it for a friend of a fr... See more That is a lot to consider doing for free, unless you have nothing better to do, you are paying back a favor to your friend, you consider this a good opportunity to practice translating in this language pair, or you are trying to break into this language pair that you think you are eminently qualified to handle but you have very little to cite as "experience" (the first time I did English monoligual editing, I did it for free). I can think of additional reasons, but doing it for a friend of a fried or even a friend, is not a good reason. My friends will let me bake them a cheese cake on their birthdays, but will not let me provide them with translation for free. They know it is my livelihood. Even my sister-in-law got upset when I didn't want to be paid after translating her diploma.
Here is how I would respond to the inquiry:
Thank you for approaching me with this very interesting project. I would like to clarify that XXX>XXX is not a primary language pair of mine, so I don't feel right about providing professional service in this language pair. I can either refer you to someone who specializes in this language pair, or, if all you need is a one-page rough account of the content of these 10 pages, I would be happy to provide you with that for no charge. If you want me to provide a full translation, I charges $XX per word, to be paid within XX days. Thank you very much. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | not in your regular, working language pairs | Jul 12, 2003 |
One of the things it seems like no one has hit upon yet is that this job would not be in one of your regular translating pairs, so you might have to outsource it. Ask your friend if she thinks the artist could pay for the job. If the answer is yes, problem solved.
If the answer is no, offer to try and find a translator who would be willing to do it (that is, a 1-2 gisting, not a full translation of all 10 pages!) for free. Lots of us like to do projects for free from time to time. I... See more One of the things it seems like no one has hit upon yet is that this job would not be in one of your regular translating pairs, so you might have to outsource it. Ask your friend if she thinks the artist could pay for the job. If the answer is yes, problem solved.
If the answer is no, offer to try and find a translator who would be willing to do it (that is, a 1-2 gisting, not a full translation of all 10 pages!) for free. Lots of us like to do projects for free from time to time. If the artist is well enough known to have ten pages in a book written about her, maybe you could find a translator who is a fan of her art who would be willing to do the work for her. I have certain 'pet' areas that I am willing to do small projects for free in simply because I find them interesting and are for people/causes that I wish to support. I have also traded translation work for babysitting, dinner, tickets to cultural events, legal services (the closing on the purchase of a house, which saved me big bucks), the chance to address a professional society on aspects of their work and translation (which gave me a slew of new work), tulip bulbs, and so on. I don't make a practice of doing this every day, and such work takes a lower priority than 'regular' work, but I do it happily. I think lots of us do this.
If you can't find a volunteer, you can then return to the artist and tell her that, and inform her of what going rates are.
Furthermore, your friend who wants you to help the artist obviously thinks highly of you and your skills, and therefore trusts you with one of her friends. I don't think she would be offended if you ended up having to charge the artist $$$. ▲ Collapse
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 05:19
English to Spanish
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| J. Leo (X)
Local time: 11:19
Dutch to English
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You should know what your time is worth. There’s nothing to defend if you were to request something that satisfies your sense of self-value, hourly rate, sense of exchange, however you may feel good about it. I have a tiered rate among my acquaintances and friends. Those that can pay do pay a lower rate. The other ‘tiers’ depend upon the amount of work, the relationship, my time and I want something in return even if it’s a dinner or a drink in town. A gesture is definitely in order.
... See more You should know what your time is worth. There’s nothing to defend if you were to request something that satisfies your sense of self-value, hourly rate, sense of exchange, however you may feel good about it. I have a tiered rate among my acquaintances and friends. Those that can pay do pay a lower rate. The other ‘tiers’ depend upon the amount of work, the relationship, my time and I want something in return even if it’s a dinner or a drink in town. A gesture is definitely in order.
I like what the gentleman from France here above wrote. Something about not charging artists because, we’re all artists somehow. I translate for an artist who has taught me to sculpt and paint. Business is business even among friends. What I love about artists is their sense that everything is possible because they thought of it. This gets annoying when it comes to money and business. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You don't really want to do it, do you? | Jul 12, 2003 |
It seems to me that you don't really want to do this job - if you were happy to do it you would just get on with it and there would be no question - so you are really asking whether it is OK to refuse to do a favour for the friend of a friend. The answer is that it is always OK to turn something down if doing it is going to make you feel irritated or resentful that you have taken it on. What you feel you want to do is paramount - whether to turn it down outright (perfectly reasonable, and it d... See more It seems to me that you don't really want to do this job - if you were happy to do it you would just get on with it and there would be no question - so you are really asking whether it is OK to refuse to do a favour for the friend of a friend. The answer is that it is always OK to turn something down if doing it is going to make you feel irritated or resentful that you have taken it on. What you feel you want to do is paramount - whether to turn it down outright (perfectly reasonable, and it doesn't have to be your job to find someone else who could do it, unless you want to take on that role), or whether you offer to do it for either a full or a reduced charge. I would be saying to your friend "Is she expecting to pay for it? If I did it I would need to charge XXX".
Obviously there is also nothing wrong in agreeing to do it for free - but only if you are actually happy to do this; it shouldn't be a case of feeling pressurized by your friend. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hodja* says... | Jul 14, 2003 |
Gift Rabbit ~
A man from another village, mere acquaintance of Nasreddin Hodja, was in Aksehir for some trade business. At the end of the day, he knocked on Hodja's door.
`Hodja Effendi, since I'm in town, I thought I should pay you a little visit. And, here is a rabbit as a token of my respect for you.'
Hodja welcomed the guest as is the Turkish tradition and asked him to stay for dinner. Hodja's wife cooked the rabbit and they all made a good meal of it. A few days lat... See more Gift Rabbit ~
A man from another village, mere acquaintance of Nasreddin Hodja, was in Aksehir for some trade business. At the end of the day, he knocked on Hodja's door.
`Hodja Effendi, since I'm in town, I thought I should pay you a little visit. And, here is a rabbit as a token of my respect for you.'
Hodja welcomed the guest as is the Turkish tradition and asked him to stay for dinner. Hodja's wife cooked the rabbit and they all made a good meal of it. A few days later, there were people at the door again. Hodja didn't know who they were, so they had to introduce themselves.
`Nasreddin Hodja, we are friends of the man who brought you the rabbit.' they explained. They were passing through Aksehir and they thought they drop by. Nasreddin Hodja and his wife opened their home to them as well. They served soup for dinner.
`It is the broth of the rabbit.' elucidated the Hodja.
Another couple of days passed and there was yet another group of strangers at Hodja's door.
`We come from the neighbour village, we are the friends of the friends of the man who brought you the rabbit.' they said. Hodja had no choice but to let them in. When it was dinner time, Hodja brought a large pot full of well water to the table.
`What is this, Hodja Effendi?' inquired the displeased guests.
`It is the broth of the broth of the rabbit.' Hodja snapped.
* Nasreddin Hodja (Hoca) is a 13th century Turkish personage who lived in Aksehir in south-central Turkey. About 400 handwritten manuscripts that narrate anecdotes demonstrating his quick wit and wisdom have survived. Hodja was clearly a beloved character whose advise and opinion the townspeople solicited and respected. They also loved to test his wit by playing mischievous games on him or by asking him absurd questions. Hodja was often victim to the practical jokes of children and adults, who wanted to see how he would get himself out of trouble. But Nasreddin Hodja, to the delight of his fellow villagers, was never stumped to deliver a witty one-liner.
http://www.readliterature.com/hodja.htm ▲ Collapse
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| A friend in need, is a friend indeed... | Jul 16, 2003 |
I just translated three very committing research papers in NAVAL ARCHITECTURE for
a friend.
Last year, I translated a research paper on geophone oil fileds surveying technology for another friend.
And two years ago, I translated a research paper on semiconductors for another friend of mine.
...too many researchers friends????
Cheers from Italy, the land of fr... See more I just translated three very committing research papers in NAVAL ARCHITECTURE for
a friend.
Last year, I translated a research paper on geophone oil fileds surveying technology for another friend.
And two years ago, I translated a research paper on semiconductors for another friend of mine.
...too many researchers friends????
Cheers from Italy, the land of friendship!!! ▲ Collapse
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