https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish/linguistics/1131729-segunda-persona-plural.html?phpv_redirected=1&phpv_redirected=2
This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
Ø 20 c/200 mm
Sección Tipo

Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

segunda persona plural (arcaico)

Spanish answer:

vos, vuestra merced, vuestra señoría, etc.

Added to glossary by Paul Roige (X)
Sep 6, 2005 07:28
18 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term

segunda persona plural

Spanish Art/Literary Linguistics
"-Senora por favor os lo rogamos, no os enfadeis con nosotras, acabad con esta pesadilla."

El escritor construye el dialogo entre dos personas usando segunda persona plural. ?Es un estilo literario o arcaico? ?Cómo se traduce a otro idioma (no Inglés): "usted" o "tú"?
Responses
5 +1 vos
5 +6 thou/thee
5 +2 We beg you Madam, do not be angered with us
4 +1 you
Change log

Sep 9, 2005 13:02: Anabel Martínez changed "Language pair" from "Spanish to English" to "Spanish"

Discussion

SZM (asker) Sep 9, 2005:
Gracias a todos por la energ�a y tiempo investidos para me ayudar.
SZM (asker) Sep 9, 2005:
S�, Mar�a, es lengua aglutinante y extremamente complicada (hay m�s declinaciones y conjugaciones irregulares que regulares). "Ti vagytok" es correcto, pero s�lamente para la segunda persona plural. "Usted(es)" o "(vos)" siempre se tracucen con la tercera persona, igualmente que el castellano de hoy.
Anna Moorby DipTrans Sep 6, 2005:
Do we know which period this is set in? or written in?
María Roberto (X) Sep 6, 2005:
Me qued� pensando y sigo: SZM �te refieres a los pronombres personales como "os"? �OS lo rogamos? �C�mo traducir ese "OS"?
María Roberto (X) Sep 6, 2005:
Para SZM: Yo tampoco hablo h�ngaro, pero por lo que estoy viendo es una lengua aglutinante y con declinaciones, como el lat�n, griego y ruso. Si lo que escribo es correcto "(ti)vagytok" creo que es tu opci�n. Es el "vosotros sois" del espa�ol.
Anna Moorby DipTrans Sep 6, 2005:
No hablo h�ngaro :o) pero a ver si tienen algo como "My Lady" o "Sire" en ingl�s, por ejemplo
Anna Moorby DipTrans Sep 6, 2005:
Pues entonces es lo que hemos dicho, que en ingl�s ser�a thee o thou. Pero si eso no existe en h�ngaro, yo sugiero que utilices la forma m�s formal, y a lo mejor intentar evocar la �poca a�adiendo otras palabras arcaicas.
SZM (asker) Sep 6, 2005:
Anna, el escritor es de Espana.
Anna Moorby DipTrans Sep 6, 2005:
SZM, sabemos de d�nde es el escritor? Porque, como dice Franglish, el vos se usa hoy en d�a en Argentina, pero no en Espa�a.
María Roberto (X) Sep 6, 2005:
franglish: en Argentina usamos el "voseo" o el "tuteo". Ejemplo: Vos sos un buen traductor. Es un registro informal en 2� persona del singular. No es el caso de SZM. Thou/thee( de la �poca del Renacimiento) o You son las opciones en ingl�s.
franglish Sep 6, 2005:
Anabel, el 'vos' es de uso corriente en partes de America Latina, en Argentina por ejemplo
SZM (asker) Sep 6, 2005:
Gracias. Anna, quiero traducirlo al h�ngaro. Debo traducir como "usted" o como "t�", no hay alternativa tercera. Si trato de adaptarlo al ambiente de la �poca, pongo "usted", pero aun no s� como reproducir la emoci�n especial que nos da el "vos" en espanol.
SZM (asker) Sep 6, 2005:
Gracias. Anna, quiero traducirlo al h�ngaro. Debo traducir como "usted" o como "t�", no hay alternativa tercera. Si trato de adaptarlo al ambiente de la �poca, pongo "usted", pero aun no s� como reproducir la emoci�n especial que nos da el "vos" en espanol.
Anabel Martínez Sep 6, 2005:
en realidad el �nico matiz que da el "vos" es el arcaicismo, cosa que en h�ngaro es posible que puedas conseguir con las palabras que escojas para acompa�ar al "usted" h�ngaro, en mi opini�n.
Anabel Martínez Sep 6, 2005:
concuerdo con franglish en la traducci�n a franc�s y alem�n; s�lo quer�a especificar que en estos idiomas si que es se�al de respeto, mientras que el "vos" en castellano es totalmente arcaico.
Anna Moorby DipTrans Sep 6, 2005:
which language do you want it translated to if not English?? In which case, you should change the pairing of this question
franglish Sep 6, 2005:
Usted en alem�n: Sie; en franc�s: vous. No es ni literario ni arcaico, es se�al de respeto o que no se conoce la persona

Responses

+1
22 mins
Selected

vos

Es arcaico, el tipo de lenguaje que se usaba hace un siglo. No es ni "tú", ni "usted", sino "vos". Supongo que cada idioma debe de tener su forma de decirlo.
Peer comment(s):
agree Anna Moorby DipTrans : exactly
7 mins
thanks, it seems we both arrived at the same time :)
neutral Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X) : sorry?? some Spaniards still use these forms...though only in referring to plural..not using plural to refer to one lady
7 hrs
of course, it's the plural with a plural sense, but in the question it says "señora", so it talks about another use (archaic) of it. I don't see your point, as you're saying the same I'm stating
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Gracias, Anabel, perdón por la respuesta prolongada. Ya es claro que es una forma que no existe ni existía en nuestro idioma. La solución que he escogido es que pongo el equivalente de "Vuestra Merced, Vuestra Senoría etc." seguido por tercera persona singular. Esta forma se usaba en el siglo 19, hoy suena humorística cuando sea raramente usada entre amigos íntimos. Gracias por la ayuda."
+6
24 mins

thou/thee

This is an archaic style of Spanish, common in Cervantes and Lope de Vega etc, and is the equivalente of thou and thee in English
Hope that helps
xx

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2005-09-06 07:55:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh hang on, have just seen your question, which language do you want it translated to if not English?? In which case, you should change the pairing of this question
Peer comment(s):
agree Anabel Martínez : agree with everything you said :) I believe the pair should be Spanish, unless the asker wants a specific language translation
4 mins
Thanks Anabel
agree Hugo Ferraguti : Yes, we prey thee...
20 mins
cheers Hugo
agree María Roberto (X)
3 hrs
Thank u
agree Martin Harvey
4 hrs
Cheers
agree Cecilia Della Croce
4 hrs
Thanks
agree milliecoquis : agree
6 hrs
Thanks u
neutral Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X) : don't think so; thee/thou is too far back probably and in really formal situations, thee and thou did not connote formality but intimacy...
7 hrs
Yep, you're right, I've done a little more research. In fact, you was used to social superiors. Thanks
neutral Margaret Schroeder : As Jane says, "thee/thou" was the intimate form, equivalent to modern-day tú/vos.
7 hrs
Thanks for the info :o)
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs

you

Really, the only way to say vosotros/ustedes in English is to say "you" and it is understood that it is referring to everyone and not just that one person. More informal ways are "you guys" (very common in U.S.) or "you all" (colloquial - Southern U.S.). I have heard an interesting one from N.Ireland - "you's". In a formal context, none of these would be appropriate. But in conversation they could be exceptable. In the case of this passage, I would just use "you". Otherwise, you will have to make more changes to the structure of the sentence and say - For example, "Sir, we ask you and <your team> not to get angry with us and for all of you to end this nightmare". Hope this helps.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 14 mins (2005-09-06 14:43:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Anna Moorby DipTrans, Now, that I re-read everything, I guess it could be both ways - vos or vosotros. But don't we need to know the context to determine whether or not the speaker is referring to a group, or if the speaker is addressing the Señora respectfully using an archaic form (the vos used in Argentina and elsewhere)?
Peer comment(s):
agree María Roberto (X)
42 mins
neutral Anna Moorby DipTrans : Even though the asker has posted it as second person plural, for which your answer is fine, in fact, given the context, it is actually the singular use, and if it's Castillian Spanish, this is an archaic use
48 mins
Actually, it is the vosotros form of modern day Spanish - but as stated already, only used in Spain. It has nothing to do with Vos used in Argentina, and it is not considered "thou" (which is Vos as used in the archaic form of Cervantes, etc.).
Something went wrong...
+2
7 hrs

We beg you Madam, do not be angered with us

Unless this is 17th century..i would not use thee/thou. It depends on the century .....I don't exactly know the cut-off for thee or thou in English but it is certainly not 19th century...

If this is 19th century, which it might be, I would use You and the Royal We and MAdam and that would translate it...
Peer comment(s):
agree Margaret Schroeder : Or "We pray you Madam, ". In other words, using archaic vocabulary.
5 mins
We pray, Madam, even better!
agree Anna Moorby DipTrans : Yep, as I said in my comment, I think this is the way of getting around the problem. But the asker doesn't want a translation into English, just clarification about usage.
15 mins
Something went wrong...