Apr 13, 2012 07:48
12 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Hungarian term
u.az
Hungarian to English
Art/Literary
Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
History of Art
This occurs in a list of references to previous published works on a painting, and the attribution given in each work appears in brackets after the reference. If a given attribution is the same as the previous attribution, the author has used (u.az) meaning ugyanaz, "the same" in English. I have thought of writing ibid. but I have qualms.
In some cases an attribution is "(copy after H. Bosch)" and the following one is "(u.az)" - can ibid. still be used? My understanding was that ibid. means "the same person" and the attribution here does not refer to a specific person. Other cases of open-ended attribution are "Antwerp painter" - it could be anyone, so although "the same" seems logical in English (if ungainly) I'm not sure about "ibid." in Latin.
In some cases an attribution is "(copy after H. Bosch)" and the following one is "(u.az)" - can ibid. still be used? My understanding was that ibid. means "the same person" and the attribution here does not refer to a specific person. Other cases of open-ended attribution are "Antwerp painter" - it could be anyone, so although "the same" seems logical in English (if ungainly) I'm not sure about "ibid." in Latin.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 | ditto |
Ildiko Laskay
|
| 5 | ibid és idem |
JANOS SAMU
|
| 3 | id. (idem) |
Ildiko Santana
|
Proposed translations
1 hr
Ildiko Laskay
Hungary
Hungary
Native in Hungarian
Hungary
Quality is never an accident.
Native in: Hungarian
Works in: English to Hungarian, Hungarian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
ditto
I think 'ibid(em)' ('the same place') is mainly used in footnote/endnote citations referring to an author+title, but the situation/context is different here.
'Ugyanaz' is a kind of jolly joker. It can refer to anything - people, things, places, dates etc. - just like 'ditto' as in the following art-related examples:
Collection of Valkenburg Rott. 1731, (separately) 875 flo. 781.
___________Lormier . . . 1763, (ditto) 1200 flo. 1081.
Collection of M. de la Haye . . . . . 1749.
__________ John Knight, Esq. (Mr. Phillips) 1819. . 95 gs.
__________ M. Zachary, Esq. (Ditto) . . 1828. . 150 gs.
Collection of Choiseul (the pair) . 1772. . 20,000 fs. 8001.
__________P. de Conti (ditto). . 1777. . 19,800 fs. 7921.
__________ Duruey (separately) . 1787. . 4601 fs. 1841.
A Catalogue Raisonné of the Works of the Most Eminent Dutch, Flemish, and French Painters
http://books.google.hu/books?id=gQkFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA392&lpg=PA...
Chapter 6 Architecture and other arts
List of Illustrations
117. Assyrian altar, from a bas-relief, Khorsabad (after Botta)
118. Assyrian temple, Khorsabad (ditto)
120. Assyrian temple, Nimrud (drawn by the Author from the original in the British Museum)
121. Assyrian temple, North Palace, Koyunjik (ditto)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16162/16162-h/r2c.htm
CHAP. VIII. Arabian Ornament.
31 1 Arabian Ornaments of the Ninth Century from Cairo.
32 2 Ditto Thirteenth Century ditto.
33 3 Ditto ditto ditto.
CHAP. XI. Persian Ornament.
44 1 Ornaments from Persian MSS. in the British Museum.
45 2 Ditto ditto.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts...
7. ' Sketches by G. Morland ' Title-page: Artist under tree sketching horses . . .
10. Studies of Horses, etc.
11. Ditto of Sheep, etc. ...
12. Ditto of Horses, etc.
London, 1792.
Ditto.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/ralph-richardson/georg...
'Ugyanaz' is a kind of jolly joker. It can refer to anything - people, things, places, dates etc. - just like 'ditto' as in the following art-related examples:
Collection of Valkenburg Rott. 1731, (separately) 875 flo. 781.
___________Lormier . . . 1763, (ditto) 1200 flo. 1081.
Collection of M. de la Haye . . . . . 1749.
__________ John Knight, Esq. (Mr. Phillips) 1819. . 95 gs.
__________ M. Zachary, Esq. (Ditto) . . 1828. . 150 gs.
Collection of Choiseul (the pair) . 1772. . 20,000 fs. 8001.
__________P. de Conti (ditto). . 1777. . 19,800 fs. 7921.
__________ Duruey (separately) . 1787. . 4601 fs. 1841.
A Catalogue Raisonné of the Works of the Most Eminent Dutch, Flemish, and French Painters
http://books.google.hu/books?id=gQkFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA392&lpg=PA...
Chapter 6 Architecture and other arts
List of Illustrations
117. Assyrian altar, from a bas-relief, Khorsabad (after Botta)
118. Assyrian temple, Khorsabad (ditto)
120. Assyrian temple, Nimrud (drawn by the Author from the original in the British Museum)
121. Assyrian temple, North Palace, Koyunjik (ditto)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16162/16162-h/r2c.htm
CHAP. VIII. Arabian Ornament.
31 1 Arabian Ornaments of the Ninth Century from Cairo.
32 2 Ditto Thirteenth Century ditto.
33 3 Ditto ditto ditto.
CHAP. XI. Persian Ornament.
44 1 Ornaments from Persian MSS. in the British Museum.
45 2 Ditto ditto.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts...
7. ' Sketches by G. Morland ' Title-page: Artist under tree sketching horses . . .
10. Studies of Horses, etc.
11. Ditto of Sheep, etc. ...
12. Ditto of Horses, etc.
London, 1792.
Ditto.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/ralph-richardson/georg...
Note from asker:
| Convincing, Ildikó, thank you. I'll wait a day before selecting. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you for the convincing research too."
35 mins
JANOS SAMU
United States
United States
United States
We know the language and the system too.
Works in: English to zzz Other zzz, English to Lao, English to Lithuanian, and 91 more.
ibid és idem
Ibid is used when indicating the same source, but idem is used uses to cite a preceding end note that cited TWO or MORE sources. The Idem note refers to only one of the two sources cited directly before.
Note from asker:
| Yes, I spent all that time checking the difference between idem. and ibid. and still went and typed the wrong one. My id must have got the better of me. Thanks for the clarification. |
| Yes, Jim, because idem is not an abbreviation, unless abbreviated to id. János: surely it would be useful to know WHICH of the previous two sources ibid. refers to, wouldn't it? Anyway, I am inclined to concur with the Chicago style book, which says the whole system is confusing and falling into disuse. (Although we still need to know how to translate historic sources, and my hunch is that usage is not as consistent as one would like). Thank you all for your input. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Jim Tucker (X)
: just for clarity: "ibid." has a period (short for "ibidem"); "idem" does not.
1 day 3 hrs
|
2 days 13 hrs
Ildiko Santana
United States
United States
Native in Hungarian
&
English
United States
Accurate / Fast / Cheap -- Pick Two
Native in: Hungarian 
, English
Works in: Hungarian to English, English to Hungarian, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Hungarian term (edited):
u.az (ugyanaz)
id. (idem)
Én ugyan csak jogi fordításaim során találkoztam eddig az "u.az" rövidítéssel, de talán itt is megfelel. Ami a magyarban "ua" vagy "u.az", az angol anyagokban "id."-ként szokott szerepelni - az idem rövidítése / the Latin root of idem and identitas, which mean ''the same''. Sok perirat tartalmaz hivatkozásokat korábbi jogesetekre, ilyenkor használják az "id." rövidítést, hogy ne kelljen ugyanarra a perre minden említéskor részleteiben hivatkozni. Logikus lenne, hogy katalógusokban is így használják, de nem vagyok biztos benne (ezért közepes a magabiztosságom). :)
Note from asker:
| Fine, however while I was checking Latin abbreviations in wikipedia I noticed that the legal citation style seems to be different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibid. |
Discussion