Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Leitmotiv-Leidmotiv

English translation:

key note - painful note

    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2013-12-12 18:54:11 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Dec 8, 2013 20:43
10 yrs ago
5 viewers *
German term

Leitmotiv-Leidmotiv

Not for points German to English Art/Literary Journalism
Dear colleagues,
Did anyone have to translate the german pun Leitmotiv-Leidmotiv into English?
Change log

Dec 9, 2013 01:24: Cilian O'Tuama changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Helen Shiner, Susanne Schiewe, Cilian O'Tuama

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

philgoddard Dec 9, 2013:
We still don't have nearly enough context, because it's not clear why the "Leid" happens. Does it mean he's suffered because he finds alternative solutions?
It would be useful to have the sentences before and after this one - or is it a heading?
We say "profile", not "portrait", by the way.
polyglot45 Dec 9, 2013:
or you could find another parallel by taking a similar word such as credo, tenet, axiom, dogma, doctrine, maxim and finding another similar sounding word, i.e. your own play on words. Nothing comes to my mind for the moment but maybe, with time, it will filter through!
Michel Buckley (asker) Dec 9, 2013:
Thank you very much, Helen!
Helen Shiner Dec 9, 2013:
Ok What you could do, if you want to keep the pun and the intended readership for your article is educated, you could say, "motif of suffering (Leidmotif in German)" or as a footnote: the author makes a play on words by counterposing Leitmotif with Leidmotif, an invented word, to emphasise the theme of suffering" or something similar.
Michel Buckley (asker) Dec 9, 2013:
A "portrait"here is an article presenting a famous person.

"Leidmotiv" is just a pun, a play of words. I can't describe it further.
Helen Shiner Dec 9, 2013:
@Michel Thanks, but what do you mean by "the text is a portrait"? That it describes a portrait, e.g. a painting of someone? If so, I would go with what I have already suggested. Leitmotiv and motif of suffering. Another alternative would be to use 'theme' instead of 'motif' but that loses the repetition. Depending on the type of text, which you still don't say, you could briefly explain 'Leidmotiv' in brackets or a footnote.
Michel Buckley (asker) Dec 9, 2013:
Context Dear Helen, Dear Cilian, Thank you for your reply!
The complete sentence is:

Ungewöhnliche Probleme erfordern ungewöhnliche Lösungen: Das ist sein Leitmotiv - oder auch Leidmotiv?

The text itself is a portrait.

The main problem here is of course "Leidmotiv", a word that doesn't even exist in German. Does "grieving principle" make sense in English?
Cilian O'Tuama Dec 9, 2013:
Agree with Helen This could be a very interesting Q. But w/o context, potential helpers would be wasting their time.
Helen Shiner Dec 8, 2013:
@ Michel Welcome to Kudoz! It would be very helpful if you could provide the context for this, including the sort of text in which it is being used and how. Surrounding sentences give an idea of what is intended by it and the tone of the piece. On the face of it, the pun cannot be rendered into EN in my view. Leitmotiv is Leitmotiv in EN (i.e. we use the GER) and Leidmotiv is a motif of suffering or similar. But if we know the context, maybe we can come up with something else entirely. Thanks.

Proposed translations

-1
19 hrs
Selected

key note - painful note

Interesting problem. "Key note" is a fairly usual translation and many things can "end on a painful note", but I see no reason why it couldn't be used in this context too.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Helen Shiner : A motif is a theme, i.e. repeated. A note occurs once. For this reason, I don't think this fits the context.
2 hrs
disagree Cilian O'Tuama : Sorry, have to disagree, for fear of this entering the glossary
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 5 hrs

guiding theme - theme of suffering; Leitmotif - motif of suffering

With explanation in brackets, if deemed appropriate to the nature of the text.

A leitmotif /ˌlaɪtmoʊˈtiːf/ is a "short, constantly recurring musical phrase"[1] associated with a particular person, place, or idea. It is closely related to the musical concepts of idée fixe or motto-theme.[2] The term itself is an anglicization of the German Leitmotiv, literally meaning "leading motif", or perhaps more accurately, "guiding motif". A musical motif has been defined as a "short musical idea ... melodic, harmonic, or rhythmic, or all three",[3] a salient recurring figure, musical fragment or succession of notes that has some special importance in or is characteristic of a composition: "the smallest structural unit possessing thematic identity."[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitmotif

leitmotif, German Leitmotiv (“leading motive”), a recurring musical theme appearing usually in operas but also in symphonic poems. It is used to reinforce the dramatic action, to provide psychological insight into the characters, and to recall or suggest to the listener extramusical ideas relevant to the dramatic event. In a purely musical sense the repetition or transformation of the theme also gives cohesion to large-scale works.

The term was first used by writers analyzing the music dramas of Richard Wagner, with whom the leitmotif technique is particularly associated. They applied it to the “representative themes” that characterize his works. The close thematic musical structure of his dramas, from Der Ring des Nibelungen onward, including Tristan und Isolde and Die Meistersinger, demands skillful contrivance and keen intelligence in order to make the themes work satisfyingly in a symphonic way and at the same time enrich the dramatic events.

The leitmotif has two distinct dramatic functions, which may operate separately or together: one is allusion (to dramatic events), the other transformation, or continual modification of the theme. Both were used long before Wagner. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s four-measure phrase “Così fan tutte” (“Thus do they all”), in his opera of the same name, is allusive, but it appears as a recurrent motto rather than as a true leitmotif. Another early example of such allusive use is in Carl Maria von Weber’s opera Der Freischütz (The Freeshooter, or, more colloquially, The Magic Marksman), when Max hesitates to descend into the wolves’ glen and the orchestra echoes the mocking chorus that had teased him in the first act.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/335529/leitmotif
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search