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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

visa par la Marine Marchande

English translation:

approval [for registration] is refused by Maritime Authorities

Added to glossary by Julie Barber
Oct 31, 2019 19:46
4 yrs ago
10 viewers *
French term

visa par la Marine Marchande

French to English Other Ships, Sailing, Maritime Sale & Purchase of a sailing boat
Ahoy all sea dogs out there!

So, a really simple contract - a bank selling a sailing boat to an individual.

But towards the end it says:

Le présent acte sera annulé de plein droit en cas de refus de visa par la Marine Marchande.

Can't understand what it would have to do with the "merchant navy"??

thanks
Proposed translations (English)
3 [absence/lack of] (proper) registration by (the proper) French authorities
4 +1 approval of the Marine Marchande (French Chamber of Shipping)
3 Departmental Directorates of Territories and the Sea (DDTM), formerly Maritime Affairs
4 -1 Merchant Navy/Marine granted visa
4 -1 registered by the (appropriate) French maritime affairs (port) authority

Discussion

Julie Barber (asker) Nov 5, 2019:
@Daryo, thank you for your input, which was very useful.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Nov 2, 2019:
I would retain the FR-language reference in the translation, without upscaling it to the authority above or downscaling it to the authority below. In English, I'd use "maritime authorities", or something similar, with no capital letters, as a generic term and not as a translation of "Affaires Maritimes". The FR does not provide indicate the specific level of the authority so I think it is best to retain the original (which is what they'd have to look for).
Julie Barber (asker) Nov 2, 2019:
Thanks all. My doc is very similar to BD's examples - there must be a template for the transfer of pleasure boats. However, this one is a sale of contract between a bank who own the boat (a catamaran) and an individual buying it. No room for actual signature by the Marine Marchande on this contract. However, I very much see visa here as approval, not a travel visa, by an authority involved in registering the transfer and possibly providing authorising use of the boat
Ph_B (X) Nov 2, 2019:
Looking at the bottom of the last page of B D's first reference, this visa is a signature and probably a stamp too that confirm that body's agreement to the loan document. So, "en cas de refus de visa par la Marine Marchande" > "if not signed and stamped by French ship-registering authorities". This sounds as informal as the French text does.
B D Finch Nov 1, 2019:
@Asker If you look at the bottom of the last page of the first reference I posted, you will see that, alongside the spaces for the signatures of the parties, there is a space for the "visa" of the "Marine Marchande". That seems to me to indicate that it is a single, specific body. However, it seems I was wrong about "Chamber of Shipping" and that it's:
" l'administrateur des affaires maritimes du port principal d'exploitation de ce navire," or
"[s]i ce port ne peut être déterminé, l'administrateur des affaires martimes compétent est désigné par le ministre chargé de la marine marchande".
Julie Barber (asker) Nov 1, 2019:
Thanks BD. The authorities named in the text are the DDTM/Maritime Affaires and the local custom's office registering the boat for the French flag register. There is no clear indication as to which maritime authority this one is.
B D Finch Nov 1, 2019:
@Asker The problem with "Maritime Authorities" is that it is too vague and would cover other, irrelevant (in this context) authorities.
Julie Barber (asker) Nov 1, 2019:
Morning. No need to apologise, I just meant that I had stumbled on a very similar link. Thanks for your help. I have used a bland "if not approved for registration by the Maritime Authorities". Fits in with Daryo's thoughts
SafeTex Oct 31, 2019:
@Julie Barber Hello Julie

Opps. Sorry for using the link that you had already used. I really didn't see this.
If you want to put up the same suggestion, I'll withdraw mine. Or alternatively, if you come to a different conclusion, please put it up so that we can check it out

Regards

SafeTex
Julie Barber (asker) Oct 31, 2019:
the first page of this link is quite similar and has the same phrase at the bottom of the first page. http://www.jet-evasion.fr/documents/fichiers-pdf-acte-vente-...
Julie Barber (asker) Oct 31, 2019:
I also have a separate reference to "Affaires Maritimes". Could Marine Marchande really be one and the same?
Julie Barber (asker) Oct 31, 2019:
@Safetex, I had already been referring to that link! I am not sure for your answer as there is already a reference to the local customs office, so think that it is separate from your proposal?
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/how-to-obtain-the-french-f...
Julie Barber (asker) Oct 31, 2019:
thanks Daryo, yes the boat is registered for the French Flag Register
Julie Barber (asker) Oct 31, 2019:
Hi Florence yes the boat is registered with the local customs office
Daryo Oct 31, 2019:
"la Marine Marchande" in this text is the unofficial name for the authority that needs to approve ("donner son visa") the sale / accept to register the ship under French flag.

As shown on this sample: http://www.jet-evasion.fr/documents/fichiers-pdf-acte-vente-...

this authority is the one referred to as "[après visa par] le quartier d'immatriculation du navire" = the local registry of ships.

"procéder à l'immatriculation du navire auprès du quartier des Affaires Maritimes choisi" would indicate that the official name for the institution holding this Ship Register at local level (le quartier choisi) is "les Affaires Maritimes".

The use of this informal name ("la Marine Marchande") is probably so ingrained that this informal name is used even in contracts.

So here "la Marine Marchande" is a reference to the state authority in charge of the Merchant navy (must be informal, can't find any institution with that official name) and in practice it's the local office of "les Affaires Maritimes".


florence metzger Oct 31, 2019:
le navire devra être francisé d'ou le visa des affaires maritimes (les délégations à la mer et au littoral)

Proposed translations

16 hrs
French term (edited): [refus de] visa par la Marine Marchande
Selected

[absence/lack of] (proper) registration by (the proper) French authorities


(I've rewritten my previous answer to make it simpler.)

Re "Can't understand what it would have to do with the merchant navy"

I agree with Daryo in the discussion box: Marine Marchande is used here to describe French authorities that deal with registering ships, as you would use l'Environnement or les Finances.

The text is saying, in a rather informal way, that banks will be entitled to cancel any loan agreement about a ship that is not properly registered by such authorities. I'm not sure if "French Merchant Navy" would be understood as a registering authority in English, which is why some sort of explanation may be needed, while remaining as informal as the French is.

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Note added at 16 hrs (2019-11-01 11:59:21 GMT)
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I'm not sure that... :-)

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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2019-11-02 08:01:53 GMT)
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See latest note in the discussion box.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : the people who approve (donne le visa) are not necessarily the ones that are keeping the register of ships, so "approval" is more accurate.
9 hrs
See note added in discussion.
neutral B D Finch : I'd avoid "merchant navy", which is a peculiarly British term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Navy_(United_Kingdom) .
23 hrs
I agree, which is why I didn't use it in my answer and queried it in my comments.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thanks for your help"
57 mins

Departmental Directorates of Territories and the Sea (DDTM), formerly Maritime Affairs

Hello
The reference is in English but for French registered pleasure boats so it could be this
Reference:

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/the-french-registration-of-your-pleasure-boat-49652

Note from asker:
Thank you for this answer. I do think that, ultimately, the term probably does refer to the Affaires Maritimes but here they have used a more general term
Peer comment(s):
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I think you'll find that the AM is part of the DDTM: Direction Départementale des Territoires et de la Mer - Délégation à la Mer et au Littoral - Affaires Maritimes
1 day 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
5 hrs

Merchant Navy/Marine granted visa

Visa requirements for crew members are administrative entry restrictions imposed by countries on members of the crew during transit or turnaround.

These requirements for permission to enter a territory for a short duration and perform their predefined duties in the given areas are distinct from actual formal permission for an alien to enter and remain in a territory.

The validity of transit visas for crew members are usually limited to short terms such as several hours to 10 days depending on the size of the country and the circumstances. Visa policies for crew members are set by the country and apply during transit or when joining the vessel or aircraft. It is usually illegal for crew members to perform repairs or do similar work without work permits when either in port, or when travelling in territorial waters. A few countries offer a visa waiver program or do not issue a crew visa, but allow entry for a limited time with mandatory clearance documents.

Source: Wikipedia

A merchant navy or merchant marine or mercantile marine[1] is the fleet of merchant vessels that are registered in a specific country. On merchant vessels, seafarers of various ranks and sometimes members of maritime trade unions are required by the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers (STCW)[2] to carry Merchant Mariner's Documents.

King George V bestowed the title of the "Merchant Navy" on the British merchant shipping fleets following their service in the First World War; since then a number of other nations have also adopted use of that title or the similar "Merchant Marine." The following is a partial list of the merchant navies or merchant marines of various countries. In many countries the fleet's proper name is simply the capitalized version of the common noun ("Merchant Navy").

Source:Wikipedia
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : it's NOT about that kind of "visa" // What kind of "proof" do you need to (finally) see that in this ST "le visa" is to be stamped on a Contract of sale NOT on anyone's passport? ("Context" = such a nuisance ...!)
20 hrs
So prove it!
Something went wrong...
-1
19 hrs

registered by the (appropriate) French maritime affairs (port) authority

Building on (some of) the discussion and answers this is how I'd translate this.

You say you're not sure which authority is actually responsible here (you mention that "the authorities named in the text are the DDTM/Maritime Affaires and the local custom's office registering the boat for the French flag register. There is no clear indication as to which maritime authority this one is").

I think by putting "appropriate" and "port" you are narrowing it down as boats need to be registered/flagged not just with the overall authority (the DDTM formerly Affaires Maritimes) but with the local port authority or Harbour Master's Office as well.

In fact, it seems that you may just need to put "registered by the French (local) port authority". Since this boat is second hand, it's probably already registered for its French flag so just needs to be registered with the local port authority (i.e. the Harbour Master's Office)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbourmaster

Yes, I also agree that "marine marchande" as used here is an informal way to describe the authority in question. BUT (@ Ph_b) the "French Merchant Navy" would NOT be appropriate in English as that means merchant/commercial shipping with a crew rather than pleasure craft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_navy

And definitely NOT ICS either which is the international body for merchant shipping https://www.ics-shipping.org/
Note from asker:
Thanks
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : all good research, but "approval" and "registration" are not the same // le visa = approval / authorisation - not "registration" // ref: "Bureaucracy for idiots / pen-pusher's mumbo-jumbo finally explained!" p.13 (still in preparation)
5 hrs
usual unwarranted disagree and incoherant mumbo-jumbo
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : The "Aff Mar" have delegated authority to act pp the Marine marchande, ex: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do? cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072214&dateTexte=20180522 I'd go with sthg generic, like the FR. See disc post., no caps. P/auth cld mislead.
20 hrs
I don't see HOW "appropriate (maritime) authorities could be misleading when some are advocating "Merchant Marine/Navy" which is totally wrong in English!
Something went wrong...
+1
14 hrs

approval of the Marine Marchande (French Chamber of Shipping)

https://www.lemillesabords.com/web/upload/directupload/14453...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2...
Il faut en particulier souligner les recommandations
très fermes de la Chambre internationale de la marine marchande (ICS).

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2...
In particular, the strong
recommendations of the International Chamber of Shipping (ICS) have to be put in evidence.

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Note added at 16 hrs (2019-11-01 11:58:54 GMT)
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It seems I was wrong about "Chamber of Shipping".

http://reglementation-polmer.chez-alice.fr/Textes/arrete_du_...
"L'effectif de tout navire, fixé comme il est dit à l'article 1er du décret susvisé du 26 mai 1967, est soumis par l'armateur au visa de l'administrateur des affaires maritimes du port principal d'exploitation de ce navire.
Si ce port ne peut être déterminé, l'administrateur des affaires martimes compétent est désigné par le ministre chargé de la marine marchande. Par dérogation, l'effectif des navires immatriculés au registre international français est soumis par l'armateur au visa de l'administrateur des affaires maritimes du port d'immatriculation."

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Note added at 1 day 15 hrs (2019-11-02 11:18:13 GMT)
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The following reference explains why you should avoid the term "Merchant Navy".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Navy_(United_Kingdom)
"The Merchant Navy is the maritime register of the United Kingdom, and comprises the seagoing commercial interests of UK-registered ships and their crews. Merchant Navy vessels fly the Red Ensign and are regulated by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA). King George V bestowed the title of "Merchant Navy" on the British merchant shipping fleets following their service in the First World War;[1] a number of other nations have since adopted the title."
Note from asker:
Thanks for your help and research. I do think that it would be best to use the format Marine Marchande + English comment in brackets as it is a French regime
Peer comment(s):
neutral Ph_B (X) : "Chamber of Shipping" sounds like a professional org. (like "Chamber of Commerce"), whereas Marine Marchande (really not sure about caps here) is a general, unofficial term for the official Fr. govt. body that registers ships.
1 hr
I think you are partially right and that it is not a "Chamber of Shipping", but the representative or appointed proxy of the relevant government ministry.
agree Daryo : agree about visa = approval, not "registration" (which might be done by a completely different service), OTOH not sure about the rest. // retain the French + explanation - that would make sense.
11 hrs
To be on the safe side, I'd retain the French and put something like "French Merchant Marine authorities" in brackets after it.
neutral Francois Boye : why exclude the concept of visa>\
1 day 15 hrs
I haven't excluded it: it can be translated as "approval" or "endorsement" in contexts such as this, where it could mean a signature or an official stamp or both, the function of which would be endorsing / granting approval.
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