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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

would have

English answer:

a logical certainty

Added to glossary by B D Finch
Jan 29, 2018 15:36
6 yrs ago
English term

would have

English Law/Patents Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright Pls see Explanation/ Context
Dear colleagues,

I think that in the sentence that I copy below, "would" may NOT have a conditional meaning, but rather be used to express uncertainty, as in "We saw a police helicopter overhead yesterday morning. Really? They would have been looking for those bank robbers" or as in "The bridge would probably fall by next year. It is so old".

The sentence reads:

The Court further states that no reliable account concerning the market entry of other generic manufacturers have been presented in the matter by the means of witness statements or documentary evidence, nor has an account been presented of the fact that the Pharmaceuticals Pricing Board would have, during the period referred to in the suit, made decisions concerning the reimbursement status of the said products or confirmed their reasonable wholesale price as regards to other generic manufacturers’ XXX medicine products.

In particular, I think that the author of the text below chooses to use 'would' in "...nor has an (reliable) account been presented of the fact that the pharmaceuticals pricing board) "WOULD have made decisions.../confirmed their price..."

instead of

"nor has a (reliable) account been presented of the fact that the pricing board) HAS made decisions.../confirmed their price

to express clearly that such alleged fact has not been proved/established.

What do you think? Many thanks in advance for your help!
Responses
4 +3 a logical certainty
5 +1 they were certainly looking for the bank robbers
Change log

Feb 2, 2018 13:40: B D Finch Created KOG entry

Discussion

Charles Davis Jan 30, 2018:
@Rebeca That would express the meaning as I understand it. Saludos cordiales.
Rebeca Martín Lorenzo (asker) Jan 29, 2018:
@Charles Davis Thank you, Charles! However, I don't think I have to rule out the use of subjunctive mood in Spanish here. According to your explanation, couldn't I say:

"y que tampoco se han presentado argumentos respecto de que el Consejo de fijación de precios de medicamentos finés HAYA, TAL COMO ES DE SUPONER, tomado decisiones sobre las categorías de reembolso de dichos medicamentos, o confirmado su precio al por mayor razonable..."

Regarding "account", I know it is a tricky one too, but after a long discussion I have decided that "argumentos", in the legal sense of the term, i.e. arguments, contentions..., is the term that fits the context and, at the same time, is close to the original. Perhaps the author meant and should have said "means of proof", but to assume this is going too far.
Charles Davis Jan 29, 2018:
@Rebeca You're welcome!
I think your proposed translation is incorrect. It means "no argument has been presented showing/to show that the Pharmaceutical Pricing Board [...] has made decisions [...]". In other words, the PPB may not have made decisions; it has not been shown that it did. But that is not what the English text means. The English text is saying that the Pharmaceutical Pricing Board would have made decisions (it can be confidently presumed that it did make decisions) and that no account of that fact has been presented. A difficult but separate question is what it means by "account of".
Rebeca Martín Lorenzo (asker) Jan 29, 2018:
@Charles Davis I appreciate very much your entry, and the comment that you have made on B. D. Finch's answer, stating that it remains a presumption.

The thing is that I am considering using the subjunctive mood in Spanish to translate this, in particular
"y que tampoco se ha presentado (argumento) alguno que demuestre que el Consejo de fijación de precios de medicamentos finés HAYA, (...) tomado decisiones sobre las categorías de reembolso de dichos medicamentos, o confirmado su precio al por mayor razonable..."
Charles Davis Jan 29, 2018:
@Rebeca Assuming that you are putting this into Spanish, I think this use of the conditional in English corresponds to the same use in Spanish: "habría tomado decisiones" (cabe suponer que tomó decisiones).
B D Finch Jan 29, 2018:
@Asker If it is refered to as a fact, not as something alleged to be a fact, or claimed as a fact, then it has to be assumed that either it is indeed a fact, or the writer made a mistake.
Rebeca Martín Lorenzo (asker) Jan 29, 2018:
@Tony M Dear Tony,

there is no dependent condition, not in the text that precedes nor in the text that follows.

However, there is a paragraph before that reads:

It has been established in the matter by the help of the documentary evidence that a competitor of the XX company, the YY company, had been granted Marketing Authorizations for the ZZ medicinal products by December 2008, in addition to which the Pharmaceutical Pricing Board had decided on the said ZZ products’ basic reimbursement and special reimbursement status, as well as confirmed their reasonable wholesale price.


So here we see that, when the Pharmaceuticals Pricing Board makes that kind of decisions and confirms any medicinal product's wholesale price, then there is documentary evidence of it, and therefore, such documentary evidence can be presented to the Court.
What I mean is, if no reliable account has been presented of such fact, then we may also assume that the Board simply has not made such decisions, right?
Tony M Jan 29, 2018:
@ Asker I think it all depends on the rest of the context that follows (or maybe precedes); on the face of it, as it stands, I would expect it to have the conditional sense — not least, because were that not to be the case, it is hard to see why the other verbs would not have been handled the same way?
However, it all depends on whether or not there is some dependent condition, presumbaly stated subsequently, which would confirm the conditional: "...they would have made decisions... had it not been for the unfavourable market conditions." etc.
If there is no subsequent condition, then that might indicate this is not a true conditional, yes; but if there is, then I'd have said that probably clinches it...
philgoddard Jan 29, 2018:
I think it means "is likely to have made", but I'm not sure because the English is badly written.

Responses

+3
1 hr
Selected

a logical certainty

In the context "the fact that the Pharmaceuticals Pricing Board would have, during the period referred to in the suit, made decisions concerning ...", "would have means that it can be stated with confidence, because it is a logical certainty that the PPB did make such decisions during the period referred to.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : But surely the preceding negative casts doubt on that: "...nor has an account been presented of the fact that..."?
9 mins
The negative relates to the failure to present an account. If it's a fact, it's a certainty. If it isn't a certainty, it isn't a "fact".
agree philgoddard : We can't be sure given the awful writing, but this would be my guess too. I think "failure to present an account" means "the argument ignores the fact that".
37 mins
Thanks phil
agree Charles Davis : I would say that it means "it can be reasonably presumed that that they did", with confidence but not absolute certainty (which would be "must have"). It remains a presumption, not a known and certain fact.
1 hr
Thanks Charles, "Would" might imply that, but "the fact" doesn't. Though facts in Trumpland are somewhat fluid, I'm fortunate enough not to live there!
agree Oliver Simões : I would say it indicates a strong probability, not a 100% certainty.
20 hrs
Thanks Oliveira. See my comment to Charles.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
+1
14 mins

they were certainly looking for the bank robbers

that's it

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Note added at 16 mins (2018-01-29 15:53:17 GMT)
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"certainly" in the sense of high probability

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Note added at 20 mins (2018-01-29 15:56:56 GMT)
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they would have been looking for bank robbers as their main priority

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Note added at 22 mins (2018-01-29 15:59:25 GMT)
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the context is from the point of view of the reporter who assumes they would probably have been doing what they were doing

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Note added at 24 mins (2018-01-29 16:01:27 GMT)
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"certainly" en este caso significa "seguro que"

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Note added at 27 mins (2018-01-29 16:04:27 GMT)
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con la misma ambiguidad

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Note added at 29 mins (2018-01-29 16:05:58 GMT)
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ambigüedad

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Note added at 31 mins (2018-01-29 16:08:12 GMT)
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but it boils down to: "seguro que estaban etc."

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Note added at 33 mins (2018-01-29 16:09:57 GMT)
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creo que estás buscando una manera de expresarlo en español, así que te doy la idea

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Note added at 42 mins (2018-01-29 16:18:55 GMT)
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in this case it's not "uncertainty" but exactly the opposite = "definitely"

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Note added at 1 day 10 hrs (2018-01-31 02:30:41 GMT)
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with a high probability

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Note added at 1 day 10 hrs (2018-01-31 02:31:19 GMT)
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but I know from experience how these go so ok
Peer comment(s):
agree NishantM
2 days 22 hrs
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