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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Oct 30, 2014 12:44
9 yrs ago
Dutch term

werknemersorganisatie

Non-PRO Dutch to English Bus/Financial Business/Commerce (general)
• IATE translates this as: "employees’ organization" (with a reliability rating of 3 stars/reliable)
• Van Dale: (trade(s)) union
• FELOnline: employee representative organisation; trade union
• Huitenga: worker’s organization
• New Routledge Dutch Dictionary: (trade) union
• eurofound.europa.eu: trade union (http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/emire/NETHERLANDS/TRADEUNIONS... )
• omegawiki.org: trade union (An organization whose members are wholly or mainly workers and whose principal purposes include the regulation of relations between workers and employers or employers' associations.)

Oxford defines "trade union" as "An organized association of workers in a trade, group of trades, or profession, formed to protect and further their rights and interests."

Any preferences/suggestions?
Proposed translations (English)
5 +3 employee's organisation
4 trade union
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (1): Natasha Ziada (X)

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Discussion

Natasha Ziada (X) Nov 7, 2014:
:) (I feel like such a mum now!)
Michael Beijer (asker) Nov 7, 2014:
@Natasha: Yeah, you're probably right. I'll to to remember to leave a note (explaining my reasoning) before closing them in the future!
Natasha Ziada (X) Nov 7, 2014:
Fair enough Michael, about not wanting to add to the confusion. And since both answers end up being used, kind of hard to divide the points. Perhaps a note explaining your reason for closing would be helpful to all who participated in helping solve your query? To me, closing w/o points due to no acceptable answer always seems so 'harsh' :)
Richard Purdom Nov 6, 2014:
hey Michael, obviously you couldn't enter Andrew's answer as it is because the apostrophe is in the wrong place.

Thinking about this again, maybe 'local trade union' would be appropriate in a lot of cases.
Michael Beijer (asker) Nov 6, 2014:
@Natasha: I closed it because I think there is some confusion as to what it means. I'm going to translate it as "employees’ organisations or trade unions" in my text, and add a note. I didn't want to accept Andrew's answer, but then add "trade union" to his answer and make it:

"werknemersorganisatie = employees’ organisation; trade union" (for in the glossary)
Natasha Ziada (X) Nov 6, 2014:
@Michael I'm just curious as to why you closed this question without a) awarding points and b) entering a term into the glossary? (Mainly a though, as it seems you are actually using the suggestions provided)
Kirsten Bodart Nov 1, 2014:
@Andrew the OR is not mandatory for companies with fewer than 50 members of staff, although companies with between 10 and 50 may choose to have one. However, also in the Netherlands, certain CAOs apply to all companies in a certain sector if the minister deems this relevant, even though some of these employers may not even have been part of negotiations and employees do not belong to any organisation. Although CAOs can be negotiated at local company level (an employee can also negotiate on their own behalf alone), their negotiations for entire sectors or several employers will not be conducted by employee teams with lots of non-union members. Even if independents may in theory put themselves forward as a candidate for the OR, in practice most of them are union members. CAOs are cross-company and involve larger organisations than mere individual groups, which can of course lead to strikes if things are difficult.
I understand that the English word 'trade union' has had a stigma attached to it ever since at least the 70s, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the writer does mean the unions or union-affiliated organisations and it seems logical that readers need to understand this.
Michael Beijer (asker) Nov 1, 2014:
@Richard: I totally agree about the CAT tool comment. It's good to keep in mind that the people who write these (often very long and very complex) documents usually just do so in good old MS Word.
Michael Beijer (asker) Nov 1, 2014:
to be on the safe side … I think I will probably translate both "werknemersorganisaties" + "vakorganisaties" as:

"employees’ organisations or trade unions"

and ask the client via a translator's note
Richard Purdom Oct 31, 2014:
I doubt if many writers of original texts use anything to spot inconsistencies like our fantastic CAT tools.

Anyway Michael, go with Van Dale, call them trade unions, then the reader will know what you mean; it's virtually colloquial, I can't see the point of getting bogged down in definitions.
Andrew Howitt Oct 31, 2014:
Kirsten, in the Netherlands CAOs are not only discussed and agreed with unions. Within companies that have no union affiliation/membership, the employees have an 'OR' (ondernemingsraad) known as a 'Works Council'. This is also an employee organization. Hence the word term 'trade union' should definitely be avoided - even to the extent that there are a considerable number of companies for whom the term trade union is an absolute anathema. In my business life I worked for a couple of these. Curiously enough they were and still are rated as some of the best employers across the world.
Kirsten Bodart Oct 31, 2014:
It's sad The state of consistency in texts is downright appalling sometimes. For that reason I don't really take the terminology or vocab all that serious if I spot mistakes like this in the source. I rather go by meaning. To me they mean trade unions, whatever they call them. They firstly talk about CAOs with these werknemersorganisaties, then about vakorganisaties. A werknemersorganisatie if you're talking factory level, does not really take part in CAO negotiations, rather the union they belong to (which is why it is collective and more effective). CAOs work across companies (e.g. for all metal workers) which is why they do not necessarily involve union representatives (if there are any) in the company itself (unless they are high up in their union obviously).
Maybe the text was worked on by several people who don't use the same vocabulary.
Andrew Howitt Oct 31, 2014:
From this last post Michael, it just clarifies IMO (a) how boring the text was to the compiler and (b) the resultant lack of consistency. Which just about sums it up as far as civil servant are concerned (or rather, NOT)
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
interesting I just came across the following two sentences in my text:

"Functiewaardering is het hanteren van de waarderingsmethode door de deskundige van de AWVN en de vakorganisaties."

"Bij eerdere CAO-onderhandelingen tussen onze onderneming en de vakorganisaties is afgesproken, dat de functies op basis van de ORBA PM-methode van functiewaardering zullen worden ingedeeld."

So now they are using the term "vakorganisatie", which would be … "(trade) union". Hmm.
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
EN "3. Central organisations articulate and consult

At central level, the employee organisations work together in 3 trade union federations: the Netherlands’ largest trade union federation FNV, the National Federation of Christian Trade Unions CNV and the MHP, trade union federation for professional and managerial staff. The employers work together at central level in the general employers’ association AWVN, the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employers (known as VNO-NCW) and the Royal Association MKB-Nederland. " (https://osha.europa.eu/fop/netherlands/en/systems?set_langua... )
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
NL "3. Centrale organisaties articuleren en overleggen

Op centraal niveau werken de werknemersorganisaties samen in 3 vakcentrales: FNV, CNV en MHP. De werkgevers werken op centraal niveau samen in AWVN, VNO-NCW en MKB-Nederland. Deze koepels hebben regelmatig overleg met elkaar en houden afzonderlijk, als geleding of gezamenlijk regelmatig contact met de overheid. Het zijn bovendien deze organisaties waar de ervaringen van de afzonderlijke branche- en vakorganisaties bij elkaar komen. Naast belangenbehartiging is voorlichting over - en uitwisseling van - die ervaringen een kerntaak van de federaties." (https://osha.europa.eu/fop/netherlands/nl/systems?set_langua... )
Kirsten Bodart Oct 30, 2014:
Exactly my thought And CAOs (collectieve arbeidsovereenkomsten or collective labour agreements) are not limited to one company, but are a collective thing, as their name proclaims.
Tina Vonhof (X) Oct 30, 2014:
My understanding is that an 'employees' organization' is an organization within one company or a group of related companies. A 'trade union' comprises multiple companies within the same sector.
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
my context #2 "Vertegenwoordigend overleg - ondernemingsraad

De OR XXX is bevoegd toezicht uit te oefenen op een zorgvuldige naleving van de omgangsvormen t.a.v. functiewaardering, zoals afgesproken met werknemersorganisaties."

"In de praktijk selecteert de deskundige van de AWVN, na overleg binnen de organisatie, (en zo mogelijk de werknemersorganisaties), 'referentiefuncties'.
Zij kiezen, daartoe uit het beschikbare materiaal functies van laag, midden en hoog niveau uit de diverse sectoren van een bedrijf, zoals laboratoria, productie, commercie, techniek, administratie en automatisering."
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
my context: "Bij alle onderdelen van XXX in Nederland, tw MSU’s Retail / Out of Home (NL en Int), Global Categories, Operations/Supply Chain en alle shared service - / stafafdelingen worden deze indelingsverschillen vastgesteld met behulp van de methode van functiewaardering (ORBAPM) die met de werknemersorganisaties is overeengekomen.

In hoofdstuk 2 wordt beschreven wat formeel met de werknemersorganisaties is afgesproken, het z.g. Protocol Functiewaardering."

"De XXX organisatie en de werknemersorganisaties, betrokken bij het overleg inzake de binnen de onderneming geldende CAO's, zijn overeengekomen dat binnen de werkingssfeer van deze CAO's één methode van functiewaardering zal worden toegepast conform één uniforme omgangsvorm. Deze overeenkomst geldt voor onbepaalde tijd tot partijen anders overeenkomen."

"Bedoelde functies zullen worden gegradeerd met behulp van ORBA PM. De graderingen zullen de goedkeuring moeten krijgen van de AWVN, de systeemhouder van ORBA PM. Vervolgens zal het materiaal, inclusief een schema van niveaus en disciplines, ter instemming en acceptatie aan de deskundigen van de werknemersorganisaties worden voorgelegd."
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
Thanks for the info everyone! It seems it's not as clear cut as some here might think.

Furthermore, it's easy to find a definition of "trade union" in EN dictionaries and online, but finding a def. of "employees' organisation" isn't that easy.

I suppose this is also because of the differences in the various countries involved here: NL, BE, the UK and US.

My current text is actually a brochure on "functiewaardering" ("BROCHURE FUNCTIEWAARDERING XXX ORGANISATIE IN NEDERLAND")
Kirsten Bodart Oct 30, 2014:
Op Wikipedia staat dat in België een vakcentrale een vereniging van werknemers is die is aangesloten bij een vakbond. In Nederland is het dan weer een overkoepelende organisatie die vakbonden verenigt. Alhoewel dat ik vind dat het woord 'werknemersorganisatie' in België toch ook wordt gebruikt in die laatste betekenis. Brgijpe wie begrijpen kan!
Kitty Brussaard Oct 30, 2014:
werknemersorganisatie >> vakcentrale? FWIW, see f.i. http://www.parlement.com/id/vh8lnhrq7yb2/werknemersorganisat... Here the term 'werknemersorganisaties' seems to be used as a synonym for the so-called 'vakcentrales' (whereas 'vakbonden' seem to be referred to as 'werknemersverenigingen').
Kirsten Bodart Oct 30, 2014:
View from the Netherlands maybe? Mine is only from Belgium.
Kirsten Bodart Oct 30, 2014:
in my eperience colloquially 'wernemersorganisatie' is a kind of euphemism for (trade) union. Actually come to think of it, it's a matter of context: when the government is planning to make certain changes, 'werknemersorganisaties' (these are the ACV, ABVV, ACLVB and other unions) make a statement. When the management of a certain factory is doing something, it's the 'vakbonden' who make a statement. This may have something to do with the fact that organisations like the ACV (Algemene Christelijke Vakbond) have branches in all sectors of industry and then come together on a national level to defend their members, so on a local factory level, for example, they are still a vakbond pur sang. Still, in order to avoid confusion, and if the real accuracy of the text is not a major issue, I would translate it as 'union'. So not so clear cut.
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
and another one: GWIT:
werknemersorganisatie = worker's union; trade union
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
@writeaway: If it's such basic terminology, then why do so many people translate "werknemersorganisatie" as "trade union"? That's why I asked the question.
W Schouten Oct 30, 2014:
I would stick to employees' organization as opposed to employers' organization
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 30, 2014:
Van Dale Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal (14e editie, 2005):

werknemersorganisatie = "organisatie van werknemers met het doel hun belangen, m.n. in het overleg met ondernemers en overheid, te behartigen (antoniem: werkgeversorganisatie)"

vakbond = "vereniging van werknemers die in hetzelfde vak of dezelfde bedrijfstak werkzaam zijn, met als doel de behartiging van de belangen van het vak en de verdediging van de sociale en economische belangen van de leden (synoniem: vakvereniging, vakorganisatie)"

Proposed translations

+3
7 mins

employee's organisation

In Dutch, a trade union is a vakbond. Furthermore if there is a 'werknemersorganisatie' as well as a wergeversorgansiatie, logic says that these are organisations for employees on the one hand and employers on the other.
Q.E.D.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-10-30 15:55:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops! It should of course be "employees' organization."
Looking at all the comments, I would comment as follows: "why do so many people translate "werknemersorganisatie" as "trade union"? ANSWER: because they are not translating it properly. Even if you argue that the term is used in IATE and Eurofound, this doe not make them the fountains of knowledge. Often translators who work for these bodies get it wrong, usually because they do not have a good understanding of the subject matter or even the languages.
When you read some of the 'contexts' it is also clear that it does not singularly refer to trade unions but to a much larger base of organisations that represent/support/promote the interests of employees either from within a specific company or more broadly within and without. It is without doubt, prevarication or discombobulation," employees' organization. There simply is no other way of looking at it.
Note from asker:
Shouldn't that be "employees' organisation", rather than "employee's organisation"?
either that, or "employee organisation"
Indeed. Incidentally, I don't disagree with you. In fact, I think it should be translated as "employees' organisation" myself too. Was just curious what people here felt and would like to create a correct glossary entry for future Googlers.
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : whatever else could it be? this is very basic, clear-cut terminology. no need to create problems when none are present. this shows the downside of over-reliance on references.
3 mins
agree W Schouten : thank you
14 mins
agree David Walker (X)
1 hr
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1 day 2 hrs

trade union

Unless specificity is HIGHLY relevant, this will be the most understandable term to native readers.
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