Aug 16, 2013 09:58
10 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

Négatif sur papier gélatino-argentique viré à l'or

French to English Art/Literary Photography/Imaging (& Graphic Arts) concessions
yet another...


Negative on silver gelatin paper toned with gold?????

Discussion

chris collister Aug 19, 2013:
I know, I know, you're making me feel guilty about abandoning argentique, and digital split-toning just ain't the same!
Tony M Aug 19, 2013:
@ CC Great minds think alike!

The thing I love about metal toning is that kind of iridescent effect you get, that no amount of digital processing can reproduce.
chris collister Aug 19, 2013:
@Tony That was my reading also. Gold oxide does exist, but is far from easy to make and decomposes at moderately high temperatures. I never tried any of these "exotic" techniques (palladium etc.), but selenium was de rigueur, especially for chlorobromide papers.
Tony M Aug 19, 2013:
@ CC According to all the refs. I have been able to find, it is actually gold chloride, not oxide; and there's no reason why gold chloride shouldn't be used in this toning and/or development process. I think the 'oxide' is just a slip of the tongue by a non chemist ;-)
chris collister Aug 19, 2013:
Back again! If we take the original phrase apart word by word, it is seen to be deeply ambiguous on at least two fronts: "Négatif sur papier" could be taken to mean either "on" or "onto", with the former implying that the image is a negative, while the latter may imply that the negative image is projected "onto" the paper, creating a positive. On balance of probability, "gold toning" is much more likely to be the chemical process rather than the physical (and rather naff) process of gold tinting with leaf or powder. As Tony points out, "révélée à l'oxyde d'or" does imply a chemical process, though how on earth you get a noble metal to oxidise in the darkroom I have no idea, though the Victorian pioneers had astonishing skills in chemistry.
Tony M Aug 18, 2013:
Aha! I note from Asker's added context below (I hadn't spotted it before) that this is '...juste une image révélée à l’oxyde d’or,' — confirming once again that this is indeed all about the chemical gold toning process, which does NOT produce a gold-tinted image.
Tony M Aug 18, 2013:
negative We do not have enough information to know why this is being labelled as a 'negative' — it could perfectly well be a negative image, these are used a lot in contemporary photography, so it is not correct to say it couldn't be a negative image. I have found quite a number of these mentioned in the context of contemporary photography exhibitions.
It is also possible (though IMHO less likely) that this refers to an image printed FROM a negative; in that case, it seems odd that it would be a PAPER negative (not the easiest type to print from!); unless the text intended to say it was a print from a negative on ... paper; however, that would assume a rather excessive degree of 'telegraphing' of the text, which I feel is unlikely.

Naturally, it would help a great deal if Asker has any more information about this photograph, or the context in which this appears; is this, for example, in an exhibition catalogue or a sales catalogue? And what is the connection with 'concessions'?
Tony M Aug 16, 2013:
Viré 'viré' refers to the specific chemical technique of 'toning', which is treating photographs with metallic salts to produce a change in colour. I do not know what colour gold toning produces, but the term in itself specifically does NOT mean simply 'gold-coloured'. In lay language, we tend to talk about 'sepia-tinted photographs' etc., but the correct technical term for this chemical technique is 'toning'.
Richardson Lisa (asker) Aug 16, 2013:
more info This image is intended to take on a vintage aspect if that helps. The only clu I have in the text is this
'...juste une image révélée à l’oxyde d’or,'
I've researched the artist a bit and he appears to use a variet of different photographic techniques...
chris collister Aug 16, 2013:
Let's not get too polemical. As Rachel kindly pointed out, my initial answer implied (stated, even) that the negative was gold-toned. This is possible but highly unlikely. As for the inversion of the image, there is insufficient context or clarity to decide for sure whether the resulting image is a negative, or whether the projected negative image creates a positive image which is then gold-toned. Most old-school photographers would understand "gold-toning" to be chemically similar to selenium or palladium toning, not "gold tinted".

Proposed translations

+1
19 mins
Selected

gold-toned negative on silver emulsion paper

"Proper" photos used often to be toned with metals such as selenium, platinum, palladium, copper and gold. The resulting colour is not, as you might expect, gold! You can include the "gelatine" for completeness, but it's hardly necessary (though it's true that some emulsions were/are not gelatine-based)

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-08-16 11:31:53 GMT)
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Rachel is correct: the (positive) image is inverted (negative) on the paper, which is then gold-toned to produce a blue-black image, if memory serves. Not a technique I have ever used, though!
Peer comment(s):

neutral rachelha : Isn't the paper gold-toned?? To me this implies the negative has gold tones.
59 mins
Thanks, you're probably right: see above.
agree Tony M : We don't have enough context to know why this paper image is negative; is it in fact an unusual paper camera negative? Or maybe a 'conventional' print made 'unconventionally' from a positive original for artistic effect? Better to remain non-committal!
2 hrs
Thanks, Tony
agree Dr Lofthouse
1 day 2 hrs
Thanks Dr. L
disagree Helen Shiner : The negative is NOT what is on display. You need to think about a caption for an exhibition./Perhaps you'd like to take a minute to consider the irony of your response. Posting "when there's not enough to go on"??!
1 day 2 hrs
How can you be sure?? There really isn't enough information to decide one way or the other.//A minute? Not that long, I think, but do post your answer, Helen.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Chris"
-2
10 hrs
French term (edited): Négatif sur papier gélatino-argentique viré à l\'or

negative print on silver nitrate emulsion paper and gold tinted

I am suggesting, after some research, the above as a possible translation.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : 'viré' is a specific technical term that refers to the chemical process of 'toning'. / Not really; it is the negative that is toned, not the paper, and this would sound oddly non-technical to my ears. Also, 'negative print' may or may not be contradictory
2 mins
Would "negative print on silver nitrate emulsion paper with gold toning" be better?
disagree chris collister : Not sure where you get "nitrate" from. Emulsions are usually bromides or chloro-bromides. Probably not "gold-tinted" either.
2 days 13 hrs
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Reference comments

1 day 21 hrs
Reference:

Comprehensive description of the processes

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