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Novena
curiosa felicitas
Feb 7, 2010 13:14
14 yrs ago
Latin term

sed, quod ipse tamquam rem inimicissimum detestatur, libera

Latin to English Art/Literary History
I am translating a text (Italian>English) that quotes this passage from Coluccio Salutati referring to Florence:
"popularis civitas, soli dedita mercature sed, quod ipse tamquam rem inimicissimum detestatur, libera",
I found that the first part means "popular city devoted only to commerce" but can't find the part from "sed" on.

I will also post the question on Latin-Italian and hope someone in one of these two pairs can help.
MTIA
Catherine
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 but it (i.e. the city) is free -- something that this very man curses as a hateful thing
1 but, because the city itself curses it (commerce) as the most adverse thing, free

Discussion

Jim Tucker (X) Feb 8, 2010:
Is there... an echo in here?
j/k
Catherine Bolton (asker) Feb 8, 2010:
Hello all, I've continued digging here and a Latin scholar I know wrote to say that something is off ... and it seems that inimicissimum should be inimicissimam, as Sandra also noted. So it seems that the author transcribed it incorrectly.
RE the "he", it's referring to the Duke of Milan. Sorry, I should have added that!
Alison Sabedoria (X) Feb 8, 2010:
Further thinking... Jim, you got me looking further, and I think you have it! Salutati was the great defender of Florentine freedom, so if it's as you see it, that the city's freedom is the hateful thing, we're looking for another subject. Could this be Antonio Loschi of Vicenza? There's more than a hint of the phrase in question in the following (about halfway down) where Salutati rounds on his atttitude:<p>
http://www.idehist.uu.se/distans/ilmh/Ren/flor-salutati-inve...
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 8, 2010:
Don't think... it's the commerce he condemns, but the fact that (quod) the city is free. The ipse may be Giangaleazzo Visconti, the Duke of Milan, jealous of Florence's rising star.
Alison Sabedoria (X) Feb 8, 2010:
Good work by the night shift, Sandra and Jim! A concensus seems to be emerging. I agree with the idea that it is commerce that is the "hateful thing", which "he himself condemns as inimical" (or words to that effect). But is this "he" Salutati himself? I've been unable to find anything that sheds further light on this. Interesting, Sandra, that your first version (even though needing "ipsa", so apparently unjustified) was exactly as I'd first understood the phrase. Trying to lose this idea got me into a real mess! <p>What do you make of it, cbolton, in context? If there's anything you can add, e.g. what this quotation is supposed to be illustrating, or what comes immediately before or after... =)
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 8, 2010:
Excellent! Makes sense ..thanks for your efforts, Sandra.
Sandra Mouton Feb 8, 2010:
inimicissimam it is! I just googled the sentence with "inimicissimam" instead of "inimicissimum" and found a quote through Google books in a book called Crisis of the Early Italian Renaissance. So we are still not sure what the text means, but at least we know what the text is.
And it seems to be "ipse".
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 8, 2010:
(added some notes on possible typos) and a possible solution without them.
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 8, 2010:
mercature ....is just a Medieval/Renaissance Latin version (contraction) of "mercaturae" -- this was how -ae came ultimately to be pronounced; just think of the Italian fem. pl. -e for Latin -ae -- same deal.
Sandra Mouton Feb 7, 2010:
Multiple typos? This is strange indeed. Are we sure there aren't typos in this?
First, "mercature" doesn't exist (according to my Gaffiot -Latin to French- dictionary) it should be "mercatu" or "mercatore", or even better "mercaturae", as we want a dative for the complement of "dedita".
Second, if we keep "rem inimicissimum" instead of "rem inimicissimam", I can't see that it makes any sense.
Alison Sabedoria (X) Feb 7, 2010:
Sorry - I'm being brain-dead and useless! I'm not doing very well today and seem to be getting this one in a tangle. Also from what I've been reading about Salutati, my answer seems improbable, so I've removed it.
Alison Sabedoria (X) Feb 7, 2010:
I'm offering a revised suggestion Jim Tucker kindly drew my attention to a mistake, which drastically changed the sense. Thanks again, Jim!

Proposed translations

+3
8 hrs
Selected

but it (i.e. the city) is free -- something that this very man curses as a hateful thing

"curses" or "denounces"

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Note added at 8 hrs (2010-02-07 21:17:07 GMT)
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literally "a most hateful thing"

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Note added at 8 hrs (2010-02-07 21:23:47 GMT)
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The "thing" is in the Latin, but if this were going into print, I'd do "but it is free -- a fact that this man denounces as most hateful"

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Note added at 11 hrs (2010-02-08 01:03:41 GMT)
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Yes, I am assuming "inimicissimum" to be -am. "Tamquam rem _____-am" is such a prevalent formula in L. A common copying error.

Could always be wrong in this world, of course.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2010-02-08 01:08:26 GMT)
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Alternately, inimicissimum as modifying quod, and res in its meaning of "business"

"which he himself considers most hateful as a way to make a living"
Peer comment(s):
agree Sandra Mouton : "rem" is feminine when "inimicissimum" is masculine or neutral. So unless you assume "inimicissimum" is a typo for "inimicissimam".../ With the new information posted by the asker, I think your first suggestion is right
2 hrs
Yes - added note on this. Your point is well taken. It is more likely a scribal error than a typo.
agree Alison Sabedoria (X) : See discussion
14 hrs
Thanks W
agree Joseph Brazauskas
1 day 19 hrs
Your agree is almost like getting the thing notarized. Thanks Joseph.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks very much for your help."
10 hrs

but, because the city itself curses it (commerce) as the most adverse thing, free

Let's indulge in wishful thinking and imagine we have "ipsa" instead of "ipse" and "inimicissimam".

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Note added at 12 hrs (2010-02-08 01:59:27 GMT)
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After a short investigation online, it doesn't seem to be "ipsa" but it definitely is "inimicissimam", so I update my suggestion:
but, because he rejects it as the most hateful thing, free
It would help a lot if we knew who this mysterious "he" is.
Something went wrong...
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