Jack slep Aug 6, 2009:

Thank you, russki, for the compliment "big heart," but it would be more realistic if you replaced the "he---" by a "f"!

russki Aug 6, 2009:

Thanks Jack, big heart...

Jack slep Aug 5, 2009:

russki, my friend, nothing taken personally! I rather enjoyed the repartee! If I came across to you as the south bound end of a north bound mule, I apologize. (I liked that "Jack Strap"--nice play on words!)

Deborah Hoffman (asker) Aug 5, 2009:

you're both right, a translation paradox I think this is one of those situations where an original word contains several shades of meaning that may not come together successfully in the translated word. However I appreciate the "fleshing out" of the seemingly contradictory semantics, because only by defining the problem first can there be a solution :)

russki Aug 5, 2009:

Jack, don't take it personally. I was only talking about the meaning of "fefela" in the Russian language as I know it. Have not done much research into the character traits of Theophilos Iconoclast , for I've been doing translations for 20+ yrs. only compared to yours 55+(to which I tip my hat to).

Jack slep Aug 5, 2009:

To russki: Oh, I love Rachel's reponse. My point is that the word orginated from Emperor Theopilos the Iconoclast. If you think he was a frump, slut, slattern (later use of the word) rather than the numbnuts he was, that's fine with me. PS: Numerous votes for a term doesn't mean the translation is correct.

russki Aug 5, 2009:

To Jack Slep: Yah, dimwit, nincompoop -whatever... since most of us agree that Rachael's version is the best.

Jack slep Aug 5, 2009:

To Russki: I'm well aware of the Webster meaning of nincompoop, dimwit. And as for the multiple definitions, taken from dictionaries, given here referring to outward appearance, where is there any indication of such as opposed to the original, etymological root of the word. Obviously, Deb's article pertains to the past and not to modern times and meanings of words. Whatever...

russki Aug 4, 2009:

To Jack Strap: "nincompoop"- a stupid, silly, person, fool "(Webster) - clearly does not address outward appearance, but rather a cognitive ability, while "fefela", as you may see from multiple definitions posted here, bears reference to outward appearance only.

russki Aug 4, 2009:

To Sokolniki: I don't thing that anyo argued that it was archaic,- the text Deb is translatiing is a testimony to i in itself.Please read the posts carefully, before taking anything "to the point of insult". But archaic as it is, it can still be encountered in colloqual use. See the example provided by "gutbuster" in his latest post. Not that that it has any bearing to the text per se that Deb is translating. I personally like Rachel's offer for the given context the best. It addresses the sex (frump-only applicable to females), lack of of attractiveness, and its historical roots ("feo") in one word - this is hard to beat.

gutbuster Aug 3, 2009:

If this frump is 1. A girl or woman regarded as dull, plain, or unfashionable.
2. A person regarded as colorless and primly sedate.

I'd say Yes. This is also a lazy person not caring to move a finger to do anything for herself, nor does she expect anyone to do anything for her, she just does not care,
also http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?l1=1&l2=2&s=frump(except AA slang that is not acceptable in our usage)
colloquially, a hubby showing his affection might say
моя-то фефёла недавно порадовала...

Deborah Hoffman (asker) Aug 3, 2009:

simmer down y'all! I appreciate all the suggestions; especially with slang terms there often is no "exact" equivalent, perhaps only the best in a given situation.

Jack slep Aug 2, 2009:

Deborah asked for something akin to the etymology of the word. Y'all going down the wrong path and finding fault (but I like Rachel's humor). The origin of the word is:

Школьный этимологический словарь русского языка
← назад вперед →

ФЕФЕЛА. Искон. Возникло на базе собств. имени Феофила (буквально — "любящая бога"). Ср. аналогичные фофан, простофиля.
nincompoop, nitwit, simpleton, dimwit, dullard, etc.

When all else fails, research!

sokolniki Aug 2, 2009:

If not archaic,.. ..could you please prove it with legitimate verifyable quotation containing most current dates - as you suggested for Mr. Berelekhis? Just kidding.. Sometimes (or even oftentimes) we take things too serious (guilty myself), close to a point of personal insult - "how dare you doubt my knowledge?" And Rachel, thanks for bringing humor to this discussion which could be fun.

russki Aug 2, 2009:

Looking at the text,, "feofrump" may be the best version - with a footnote.

Jack slep Aug 2, 2009:

I may be missing something, but where is there any reference to a female/slut/slattern (tho' I do like "feofrump!)?. Seems to me, indirect reference is to Emperor Theophilus/os the Iconoclast, who wasn't exactly brilliant in warfare. But I'm lame, lazy, crippled,and crazy and probably missed the point....

russki Aug 2, 2009:

There was a "disagree" post in my Answer window by Mr.Berelkhis, stating that "fefela" may be a pretty woman. I suspect that this is entirely non-sensical comment was posted with the sole purpose of avenging Mr.Berelkhis for my earlier "disagreeing" with him within a number of other discussions. This is an "established pattern of behavior" with Mr.Berelkhis, which goes outside of the boundaries of professional etiquette and Kudoz guidelines. " "Фефела" did not historically originate as a variant applicaple to a "pretty", but unkempt woman, as was well illustrated by Sokolniki in her post to this discussion. Old grandmas may call their young granddaughters that in a lovingly grumpy way, but you will not find an example of a "pretty young woman" being called "фефела" not earlier, nor in this day in time in Russia. If Berelkhis wants to stand by his statement, he should prove it with legitimate verifyable quotation.

Rachel Douglas Aug 2, 2009:

beefy, clumsy, slovenly,unkempt into one word Joking aside, now, "frump" comes pretty close, don't you think?

Deborah Hoffman (asker) Aug 2, 2009:

interesting point russki Now that I think about it many of our slang insults are based on either cleanliness (which is different than a neat appearance) or class; so much for the democratic society! Promiscuity by a woman but not by a man is, alas, an internationally derided activity.

russki Aug 2, 2009:

It is. And still in colloquial use.

sokolniki Aug 2, 2009:

Forgot to add: extremely archaic

russki Aug 2, 2009:

Yes, may be originally she was beefy in the times long past, but nowadays it can be applied to any unkempt woman, no matter what the age or looks are. I have heard young girls with tangled hear called "фефела" by their grandmas. So, it depends on the historical period described in the text, I guess. Still, how can you put all these characteristics: beefy, clumsy, slovenly,unkempt into one word translation? In the west (US at least) it is not an accepted practice to judge peolple based on their appearances (especially on the amount of fat they are endowed with). It is just neither a a politically correct, nor a Christian thing to do.Hence the ideal word may be hard to come by.

sokolniki Aug 2, 2009:

Deborah, probably also beefy and rural: see the Russian dictionaries definitions:
Фефёла — ы, ж. (простореч. презрит). Крупная, некрасивая, неопрятно одетая женщина (словарь Ушакова)
Фефёла — (новг. , твр. , нижег. , тамб) простофиля, разиня; толстая, неуклюжая баба. ... (словарь Михельсона)

Also, a famous poem by Sasha Chyorny:
Песня о поле
«Проклятые» вопросы,
Как дым от папиросы,
Рассеялись во мгле.
Пришла проблема пола,
Румяная фефела,
И ржет навеселе.

Заерзали старушки,
Юнцы и дамы-душки
И прочий весь народ.
Виват, проблема пола!
Сплетайте вкруг подола
Веселый «хоровод».

Ни слез, ни жертв, ни муки ...
Подымем знамя-брюки
Высоко над толпой.
Ах,нет доступней темы!
На ней сойдемся все мы -
И зрячий и слепой

russki Aug 2, 2009:

I meant to disagree with gutbuster, but punched the wrong button. I think, there should be a better word for it, than "slattern', but if there is none, then sluttern it is. I am going to ask around. And Debby, she does not have to be beefy,- just slovenly, sloppy in appearance , resulting from not caring about how she looks. Really, it is a cruel derrogatory term coming from superficial judgement. She may be a very nice person inside. And never a slut. No Russian man would want to touch "fefela" with a 10' pole. Men always have a choice , and will go for the looker (the outer "wrapper" that is.)

Deborah Hoffman (asker) Aug 2, 2009:

general characteristics This is like a big beefy woman, no? (I'm not sure there is an English word for that, though I know a Yiddish one). Or just a sloppily dressed one?