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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

en face des neurosciences

English translation:

having to position itself/having to face (the knowledge) neurosciences

Added to glossary by Sylvie Swindells
Jul 8, 2009 12:16
14 yrs ago
French term

en face des neurosciences

French to English Social Sciences Psychology child psychiatry
La psychanalyse peut elle, en face des neurosciences, ici aussi être d’un secours, peut elle, dans ce cadre de la recherche scientifique permettre de comprendre mieux un phénomène ?

I thought, can psychoanalysis, with regard to neurosciences...
Proposed translations (English)
3 -1 having to position itself/having to face (the knowledge) neurosciences
3 +1 alongside the neurosciences
3 as opposed to neurosciences
3 beside neuroscience
3 on the other side of neurosciences

Discussion

Sylvie Swindells (asker) Jul 10, 2009:
additional information Hi guys, here are more info about the context :
Dans le champ de la recherche médicale, la problématique se déplace de celle du sujet. Il faut dépersonaliser la problématique, la rendre comparable pour réaliser des comparaisons, déduire par la logique, moins par intuition ou ressenti. La place du « sujet » s’éloigne. Psychanalyse et neurosciences pourraient avoir ici une rencontre plus diffcile car le niveau de preuve n’a dans ces deux champs pas la même nature. Pourtant, dès que le chercheur en sciences appliquées à la médecine a obtenu des données, il doit chercher à les expliquer. Pour en déduire des éléments de pathogénèse ou favorisant un trouble, éléments sur lesquels il faudra agir. La psychanalyse peut elle, en face des neurosciences, ici aussi être d’un secours, peut elle, dans ce cadre de la recherche scientifique permettre de comprendre mieux un phénomène ? Son modèle de compréhension peut il être listé à côté d’autres, notamment biologiques… ?

I am tangled between alongside and as opposed to, but I will go for as opposed to.

Many thanks for your very helpful comments
Sylvie Swindells (asker) Jul 10, 2009:
Hi lionel, this text was written by a French Child psychiatrist a peer collegue of Professor Marcel Rufo
Lionel_M (X) Jul 8, 2009:
To asker This text has been written by a French or by a Canadian ?
Lionel_M (X) Jul 8, 2009:
Du titre, au moins, il semble qu'il n'y a pas donc "antagonisme"
Sylvie Swindells (asker) Jul 8, 2009:
Hi guys,

I believe the childpsychiatrist put psychoanalysis alongside neurosciences in his discussion. The title of the discussion is : Rencontre de la psychanalyse et des neurosciences pour aborder, comprendre et traiter les troubles du comportement de l’adolescent dans les milieux socio-éducatifs.

So many thanks to all for your very helpful input!
Georgie Scott Jul 8, 2009:
I suspect the context in which this sentence appears would make it much clearer. What does "ici" refer to? Why is the author asking this question? Is he contrasting neuroscience with psycholanalyses (as opposed to/in place of)? Or is he linking the two (alongside)? I am missing a trick, I know, but I don't see the rivalry/opposition debate, because neurosciences would normally be linked to scientific research and this sentence seems to be proposing a less typical practice.
Michèle Voyer Jul 8, 2009:
et je crois que le bon terme dépend de ce qui vient avant et de ce qui vient après, je trouve que l'on manque de contexte, j'ai deviné entre les lignes qu'il y a cette idée que la psychanalyse est dans une position de faiblesse parce que je connais le sujet...
Michèle Voyer Jul 8, 2009:
c'est aussi ce que je cherche!!!
Lingua 5B Jul 8, 2009:
Oui Lionel..absolument Vous avez raison, je suis d'accord. Mais comment formuler cette conjonction en anglais?
Lionel_M (X) Jul 8, 2009:
En face Disons que cette formule n'est pas très adaptée au contexte. Les neurosciences et la psy. se posent sur deux systèmes de raisonnement divers. Le premier est supporté de preuves "mathématiques" la seconde s'appuie sur un raisonnement "philosophique". Elles ne sont donc pas en "face à face", mais sur deux niveaux divers qui se développe parallèlement. Pour cette raison, je trouve important de faire ressortir la rivalité mais pas l’opposition qui n’existe pas je pense.
Michèle Voyer Jul 8, 2009:
Lionel_M, "en face" peut vouloir dire que l'on a du mal à faire valoir son point de vue, à faire face à la "chose" qui est en face!
Michèle Voyer Jul 8, 2009:
I could give you a long list of books denouncing psychoanalysis for its lack of scientific basis, I have a good friend who just finished a masters in psychology in a distinguished Swiss university and was taught not to trust psychoanalysis, she never ever read Freud. It was not the way psychiatrists were trained in the 50s. It's the way it is today. Neurosciences and cognitive psychology have taken over. Most neuroscientists denigrate psychoanalysis. And psychoanalysts are also divided among themselves. I am quite sure what is meant here is that psychoanalysis has a hard time demonstrating it's efficiency with hard, positive, scientific evidence. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Freud is a genius in my eyes.
Lionel_M (X) Jul 8, 2009:
Rivality between the two yes, but opposition no ! Otherwise, in FR, "par opposition" or "à diffèrence de"....would be used. Not "en face" that should not be understood as "in front of" in EN
Sylvie Swindells (asker) Jul 8, 2009:
Many thanks Michele, I follow you advice in that sense.
Michèle Voyer Jul 8, 2009:
There is undoubtedly a rivalry between the two camps, and this is what you should try to convey in English.
Michèle Voyer Jul 8, 2009:
It means "is the psychoanalytical approach able to provide answers in comparison with the knowledge provided by the neurosciences...." something like that. Psychoanalysis has an "intuitive" character, while neurosciences pretend to approach mental illness in a more scientific way. (Although Freud was a neurologist and his discoveries are being proven by neurosciences, especially his discovery of the unconscious. Sorry, I am a great fan of his. My father is a psychiatrist who was trained also in psychoanalysis!)

Proposed translations

-1
2 hrs
Selected

having to position itself/having to face (the knowledge) neurosciences

I would use something along those lines

One questions whether the psychoanalytical approach, being challenged by neurosciences, can provide answers.....

One wonders whether, in the face of neurosciences, psychoanalysis is able to

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Note added at 2 hrs (2009-07-08 14:52:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It also depends very much on the context, what comes before the sentence you have given us and what comes after. I detect a rivalry, an opposition, but I don't know how strongly it is expressed in the text you are translating. So more context would do no harm.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2009-07-08 14:54:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Depending on the context it could simply mean : "in light of what the neurosciences have contributed"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Georgie Scott : Ok,can you not say "faced with (the strength/historical role of) neuroscience"? As long as I'm picky about everyone elses English I'd have to comment that it'd be "challenged by neuroscience/s" w/o the "being"."in the face of"...wrong register maybe??
6 mins
disagree liz askew : sorry, but I am cringing at the English as I don't know what it means.
1 day 21 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Many thanks for your sensible comments Michele and I think the author is actually trying to position the psychoanalysis with regard to neurosciences and other current available therapies"
43 mins

as opposed to neurosciences

/
Note from asker:
many thanks Valentina!
Peer comment(s):
agree Georgie Scott : Finally, this makes sense to me. "comprendre mieux" did it. anyway, enough from me now.
2 hrs
disagree Lionel_M (X) : Désolée Valentina mais rien n'indique qu'il existe ici une opposition.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
48 mins

beside neuroscience

-
Note from asker:
Thanks Lionel!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Georgie Scott : Sorry Lionel, but I don't think "beside" is used like this in English, "besides" or "alongside" maybe, but the meanings are all very different
1 hr
Besides = "en outre" et ce n'est pas ce que je veux dire; je confirme donc "beside" = à coté de (avec accent sur le o)
Something went wrong...
1 hr

on the other side of neurosciences


une idée
Peer comment(s):
neutral liz askew : sounds a bit paranormal to me:-)//Well, to put in bluntly then, this makes very little sense in English.
6 mins
That's not argumentation. It certainly has meanings other than that referring to the paranormal.
neutral Georgie Scott : Sorry Lingua 5B but I'd have to agree with Liz, like "beside", this seems a little bit literal to me, what would it actually mean in this sentence?
39 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

alongside the neurosciences

Neglecting neglect: some thoughts about children who have lacked ...
... attachment theory and neuroscience are used, alongside psychoanalytic ideas, ... by their inability to use help and then also the tendency of professionals ... these children, who can be difficult to relate to and hard to 'warm' to. ...
www.informaworld.com/.../content~content=a912608976~db=all~... - Similar

Collins Robert

face

b. (= coté) [d'objet, organe} side....

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Note added at 1 hr (2009-07-08 13:39:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hi

I wonder whether you could use "vis a vis"??

> face
(nom féminin)
Ecouter la définition...
Visage.
Côté, partie extérieure d'un objet.
Aspect.
Côté d'une monnaie, d'une médaille où se trouve une tête.
En face (loc.adv.): par-devant.
En regardant fixement.
Franchement.
En face de (loc.prép.): vis-à-vis de.
Face à face (loc.adv.): vis-à-vis l'un de l'autre.
De face (loc.adv.): du point où l'on voit toute la face.
A la face de (loc.prép.): en présence de.
Perdre la face: perdre son prestige.
Sauver la face: sauver son honneur.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-07-08 13:40:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Jacques Lacan and the Freudian Practice of Psychoanalysis - Google Books Result
by Dany Nobus - 2000 - Psychology - 258 pages
Questions regarding the relationship between psychoanalysis and psychotherapy, and the position of psychoanalysis vis-a-vis science have been reconsidered ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0415179610...

Amended contribution =

vis a vis the neurosciences



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-07-08 14:48:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If others feel so strongly about this one, then let them do further research on the phrase "en face de/s", I have other fish to fry now and wouldn't bother getting myself too worked up about this:-)
Peer comment(s):
agree JAN SNAUWAERT : Jan
19 mins
Thank you for agreeing with vis-à-vis!
neutral Michèle Voyer : doesn't convey the idea of rivalry between the two schools of thought (in fact diametrically opposed philosophically and methodologically)
1 hr
Frankly I think you are reading too much into the simple phrase "en face de/s" - "vis a vis" does it for me./This humble phrase does not implicate any rivalry to me.
neutral Lionel_M (X) : Vis à vis would be nice Liz, but translating a FR word with another one...... I agree w/ you on the total lack of rivalry
3 hrs
Vis à vis is a possibility, certainly, and it is used quite often in English.
Something went wrong...
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