Nov 8, 2002 09:51
21 yrs ago
13 viewers *
English term
Germany
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Native in: German (Variant: Germany) 
Works in: English to German, German to English, French to German, and 1 more.
'as long as' vs 'so long as'
English
Other
Linguistics
General English usage
Hi all,
I always thought that "as long as" was the linguistically correct form to use but am now increasingly encountering "so long as" in written English. IMO the latter is rather sloppy usage.
Examples taken from a business context:
"As long as we can ensure competitiveness, we will continue to do business in the region."
vs
"So long as market conditions continue to be dire, we will not be able to make any money."
Anyone out there to comment on this? Is this a recent phenomenon?
MTIA,
Steffen
I always thought that "as long as" was the linguistically correct form to use but am now increasingly encountering "so long as" in written English. IMO the latter is rather sloppy usage.
Examples taken from a business context:
"As long as we can ensure competitiveness, we will continue to do business in the region."
vs
"So long as market conditions continue to be dire, we will not be able to make any money."
Anyone out there to comment on this? Is this a recent phenomenon?
MTIA,
Steffen
Responses
Responses
+4
4 hrs
Selected
'So long as' is certainly not incorrect or sloppy usage per se.
The impression of sloppiness comes from using is when 'as long as' would sound better. I can't locate a rule on this, although Hazel's point about time v. condition is well taken. Several of the examples given from dictionaries and grammar books do not "sound right" to me, such as using 'so long as' to mean 'since'.
So long as you're up, get me a Grant's. (Never!)
So long as you're here, you might as well stay for dinner. (No way!)
Here's an example of an "extended point of view" usage which really sounds right (taken from a translation of Victor Hugo's Les Miserables:
"So long as there shall exist, by reason of law and custom, a social
condemnation which, in the face of civilisation, artificially creates
hells on earth, and complicates a destiny that is divine, with human
fatality; so long as the three problems of the age--the degradation of
man by poverty, the ruin of woman by starvation, and the dwarfing of
childhood by physical and spiritual night--are not yet solved; so long
as, in certain regions, social asphyxia shall be possible; in other
words, and from a yet more extended point of view, so long as
ignorance and misery remain on earth, books like this cannot be useless."
Here, from Laurence Sterne, is a literary usage meaning 'provided' which also rings completely true:
"So long as a man rides his Hobby-Horse peaceably and quietly along the King's highway, and neither compels you or me to get up behind him -- pray, Sir, what have either you or I to do with it?"
And from Henry Ford introducing the Model T, another 'provided' usage where "as long as" would not sound anywhere near as good:
"Any color you like, so long as it's black!"
It seems to me that "so long as" is somewhat stronger than "as long as", and thus carries more weight when referring to longer stretches of time or more emphatic provisional phrases. For this reason, too, it should perhaps be used more carefully than its slightly softer counterpart. On the other hand, the marriage vows say "as long as we both shall live," and what usage could be more emphatic than that?
All I know is that somewhere in my head, there is a little voice, if not a little rule, telling me which phrase sounds better in any given situation. And they are sometimes, but certainly not always, interchangeable.
So long as you're up, get me a Grant's. (Never!)
So long as you're here, you might as well stay for dinner. (No way!)
Here's an example of an "extended point of view" usage which really sounds right (taken from a translation of Victor Hugo's Les Miserables:
"So long as there shall exist, by reason of law and custom, a social
condemnation which, in the face of civilisation, artificially creates
hells on earth, and complicates a destiny that is divine, with human
fatality; so long as the three problems of the age--the degradation of
man by poverty, the ruin of woman by starvation, and the dwarfing of
childhood by physical and spiritual night--are not yet solved; so long
as, in certain regions, social asphyxia shall be possible; in other
words, and from a yet more extended point of view, so long as
ignorance and misery remain on earth, books like this cannot be useless."
Here, from Laurence Sterne, is a literary usage meaning 'provided' which also rings completely true:
"So long as a man rides his Hobby-Horse peaceably and quietly along the King's highway, and neither compels you or me to get up behind him -- pray, Sir, what have either you or I to do with it?"
And from Henry Ford introducing the Model T, another 'provided' usage where "as long as" would not sound anywhere near as good:
"Any color you like, so long as it's black!"
It seems to me that "so long as" is somewhat stronger than "as long as", and thus carries more weight when referring to longer stretches of time or more emphatic provisional phrases. For this reason, too, it should perhaps be used more carefully than its slightly softer counterpart. On the other hand, the marriage vows say "as long as we both shall live," and what usage could be more emphatic than that?
All I know is that somewhere in my head, there is a little voice, if not a little rule, telling me which phrase sounds better in any given situation. And they are sometimes, but certainly not always, interchangeable.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "As is so often the case with English monolingual questions, the choice was extremely hard to take. I selected your answer because you provided a nice range of examples but am well aware of the fact that there are somewhat diverging points of view among English native speakers, e.g. in terms of temporal vs conditional use (and certainly also between BrE and AmE).
Thank you all for your very insightful and elucidating comments.
Steffen :-)
"
+9
10 mins
see my exp
The way I understand it is:
"as long as" is purely a matter of condition. The condition in question needn't be in existence at this moment.
"so long as" is actually related to time: there is a situation in place right now and, if it changes, something will occur (which we probably don't want)
Let's see what other people have to say - I'm quite curious myself now!
"as long as" is purely a matter of condition. The condition in question needn't be in existence at this moment.
"so long as" is actually related to time: there is a situation in place right now and, if it changes, something will occur (which we probably don't want)
Let's see what other people have to say - I'm quite curious myself now!
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Antonio Camangi
1 hr
|
| agree |
Przemysław Szkodziński
2 hrs
|
| agree |
T Crotogino
3 hrs
|
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: This is an interesting explanation. Which might even be true. It certainly suits Steffen's examples. And the "so" construction does very often have a negative connotation associated with it.
3 hrs
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| agree |
NancyLynn
4 hrs
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| agree |
luskie
: Itend to think so too
5 hrs
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| agree |
Marion Burns
: This is exactly right. It's a subtle but real distinction.
5 hrs
|
| agree |
JCEC
8 hrs
|
| agree |
Y (X)
: There is no negative connotation whatsoever, though: we may or may not want X to happen - there's no way of telling.
10 hrs
|
| neutral |
Bryan Crumpler
: they're both purely conditional; the 'long' is what indicates the relation to time IMO. "So long as X is _not_ in existence you can use 'as long as' when placing a condition on X" is what your saying... sounds a bit circular
11 hrs
|
| neutral |
vsingh
: When it is said for something not going to be changed we use as long as, but when the thing is either going to be changed or was different earlier we us so long as. The earlier explanation also appears to be correct.
20 hrs
|
+1
21 mins
Bilingualduo
Italy
Italy
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
Italy
Real passion for languages
Native in: English 
, Italian
Works in: English to Italian, Italian to English
definitions
Here are a couple of useful (IMHO) definitions.
I've always thought they are interchangeable and never thought of one being the sloppy/sloppier version of the other!
But then...I'm not a mothertongue.
Grammatically they seem to be pretty much the same, maybe it's a matter of linguistic register.
HTH
Cristina
Kenneth G. Wilson (1923–). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.
as long as, so long as (subord. conjs.)
These two are interchangeable and Standard; they mean “since,” “during the time that,” “if,” and the like: As [So] long as you’re satisfied, I am too.
as long as
1. For the period of time that, as in You may keep the book as long as you want, that is, keep it for whatever time you wish to. [Early 1400s]
2. Also, so long as. Since, because, as in Please pick up some milk as long as you are going to the store, or So long as you're here, you might as well stay for dinner.
3. Also, so long as; just so. Provided that, as in As long as you don't expect it by tomorrow, I'll make the drawing, or So long as sales are greater than returns, the company will make a profit, or You may have another cookie, just so you don't take the last one. [Early 1800s]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust
I've always thought they are interchangeable and never thought of one being the sloppy/sloppier version of the other!
But then...I'm not a mothertongue.
Grammatically they seem to be pretty much the same, maybe it's a matter of linguistic register.
HTH
Cristina
Kenneth G. Wilson (1923–). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.
as long as, so long as (subord. conjs.)
These two are interchangeable and Standard; they mean “since,” “during the time that,” “if,” and the like: As [So] long as you’re satisfied, I am too.
as long as
1. For the period of time that, as in You may keep the book as long as you want, that is, keep it for whatever time you wish to. [Early 1400s]
2. Also, so long as. Since, because, as in Please pick up some milk as long as you are going to the store, or So long as you're here, you might as well stay for dinner.
3. Also, so long as; just so. Provided that, as in As long as you don't expect it by tomorrow, I'll make the drawing, or So long as sales are greater than returns, the company will make a profit, or You may have another cookie, just so you don't take the last one. [Early 1800s]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust
+3
1 hr
They are the same
The two expressions mean the same thing and are commonly used in the same way. "As long as" fits the common pattern "as [adjective] as," which is probably the reason we feel more comfortable with it. "So long as" forfeits that nice symmetry, but is no less legitimate. Here are a few examples of "so long as" from various sources. Try and substitute "as long as" to see how the meaning really stays the same, even though the flavor changes a bit:
From The Guardian (British):
"East Timor is independent -- so long as it does as it's told. President Bush cannot leave the world's newest state alone."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4419522,00.html
From the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs:
"No End in Sight So Long as Settlements Flourish"
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404007.htm
From an English grammar web site:
"So long as you study hard, you will succeed."
http://www.free-esl.com/gg/keywords/kwonly.htm
From The Columbia Guide to Standard American English:
"as long as, so long as (subord. conjs.)
These two are interchangeable and Standard; they mean “since,” “during the time that,” “if,” and the like: As [So] long as you’re satisfied, I am too."
http://www.bartleby.com/68/53/553.html
From a legal text from the State of Ohio:
"(a) so long as the taxes withheld by an employer for the Village of West Union during the measurement period
are less than one hundred dollars ($100) per quarter, payments may be made quarterly on or before the last day
of the month following the end of the quarter, subject to the approval of the Tax Commissioner."
http://www.state.oh.us/tax/Municipalites/WestUnion/WU Ordin ...
From AmericanWriters.org:
"C-SPAN (Cable Satellite Public Affairs Network) hereby grants educators associated with degree-granting educational institutions this license containing the right to tape any C-SPAN-produced program without receiving prior permission from the network, so long as the copying is for in-classroom use and not for sale, distribution, or any political purpose."
http://www.americanwriters.org/classroom/copyright.asp
Fuad
From The Guardian (British):
"East Timor is independent -- so long as it does as it's told. President Bush cannot leave the world's newest state alone."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4419522,00.html
From the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs:
"No End in Sight So Long as Settlements Flourish"
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404007.htm
From an English grammar web site:
"So long as you study hard, you will succeed."
http://www.free-esl.com/gg/keywords/kwonly.htm
From The Columbia Guide to Standard American English:
"as long as, so long as (subord. conjs.)
These two are interchangeable and Standard; they mean “since,” “during the time that,” “if,” and the like: As [So] long as you’re satisfied, I am too."
http://www.bartleby.com/68/53/553.html
From a legal text from the State of Ohio:
"(a) so long as the taxes withheld by an employer for the Village of West Union during the measurement period
are less than one hundred dollars ($100) per quarter, payments may be made quarterly on or before the last day
of the month following the end of the quarter, subject to the approval of the Tax Commissioner."
http://www.state.oh.us/tax/Municipalites/WestUnion/WU Ordin ...
From AmericanWriters.org:
"C-SPAN (Cable Satellite Public Affairs Network) hereby grants educators associated with degree-granting educational institutions this license containing the right to tape any C-SPAN-produced program without receiving prior permission from the network, so long as the copying is for in-classroom use and not for sale, distribution, or any political purpose."
http://www.americanwriters.org/classroom/copyright.asp
Fuad
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Alina Matei
: they are by no means identical. Similar in use, yes, but not the same
6 mins
|
| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: I think that there *should* be a distinction between the two, along the lines which Hazel suggests (and some of your own examples attest). However, common usage, as in so many cases, has erroded the subtlety of both thought and language. Triste.
3 hrs
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| agree |
Arthur Borges
: I agree wistfully with Chris here.
3 hrs
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| agree |
NancyLynn
: me too
3 hrs
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| neutral |
Y (X)
: There is a real distinction. And relying on the Guardian for correct English? Please don't make me laugh.
9 hrs
|
| agree |
Bryan Crumpler
: no distinction... in the context given above, they're both conditional... the distinction comes in usage as either a simile or for setting up a condition.
10 hrs
|
+2
2 hrs
Emilia Carneiro
Brazil
Brazil
Brazil
The word is yours!
Native in: Portuguese
Works in: English to Portuguese, French to Portuguese, Portuguese to English
more references
as long as or so long as
1. During the time that: I'll stay as long as I can.
2. Inasmuch as; since: As long as you're up, get me a drink.
3. Under the condition that; provided that: "So long as we don't understand it too well, every other language is poetry" (Anatole Broyard).
The American Heritage® Dictionary
1. During the time that: I'll stay as long as I can.
2. Inasmuch as; since: As long as you're up, get me a drink.
3. Under the condition that; provided that: "So long as we don't understand it too well, every other language is poetry" (Anatole Broyard).
The American Heritage® Dictionary
-1
4 hrs
#41698 (LSF)
Malaysia
Malaysia
Native in English
&
English
Malaysia
Excellent technical English
Native in: English
Works in: Japanese to English, Chinese to English, Malay to English
sometimes there are differences
<comaparison>
(1A) Stick A is as long as stick B. (OK)
(1B) Stick A is so long as stick B. (wrong)
<conditional>
(2A) So long as he is around, we are safe. (OK)
(2B) As long as he is around, we are safe. (OK)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-08 14:29:24 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
comaparison->comparison.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-08 19:43:43 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To me, (2A) is exactly the same in whatever meaning as (2B).
Both are conditional statements, not to be confused with time realted statements like below:
<time period>
(3A) I can stick around for as long as 3 hours. (OK)
(3B) I can stick around for so long as 3 hours. (technically correct but doesn\'t sound elegant)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-08 19:44:23 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
realted -> related.
(1A) Stick A is as long as stick B. (OK)
(1B) Stick A is so long as stick B. (wrong)
<conditional>
(2A) So long as he is around, we are safe. (OK)
(2B) As long as he is around, we are safe. (OK)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-08 14:29:24 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
comaparison->comparison.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-08 19:43:43 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To me, (2A) is exactly the same in whatever meaning as (2B).
Both are conditional statements, not to be confused with time realted statements like below:
<time period>
(3A) I can stick around for as long as 3 hours. (OK)
(3B) I can stick around for so long as 3 hours. (technically correct but doesn\'t sound elegant)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-08 19:44:23 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
realted -> related.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Y (X)
: So long as he is around, we are safe'-
6 hrs
|
|
Don't understand you.
|
+1
7 hrs
as... = time / so... = condition
That's the way it sounds best to my British ears!
'as long as' definitely has a 'during...' ring to it:
"As long as you keep moving, you won't get cold"
whereas I feel 'so long as...' places the emphasis more on the condition:
"You'll be alright just so long as the boat doesn't sink"
Some of the 'so long as...' examples quoted above, meaning generally 'while...' do sound very transatlantic to my ears!
As a previous answerer has pointed out, clearly they are not interchangeable when there's a comparison involved --- but then that's an entirely different construction, isn't it?
Best of luck, and thanks to all for stimulating discussion
'as long as' definitely has a 'during...' ring to it:
"As long as you keep moving, you won't get cold"
whereas I feel 'so long as...' places the emphasis more on the condition:
"You'll be alright just so long as the boat doesn't sink"
Some of the 'so long as...' examples quoted above, meaning generally 'while...' do sound very transatlantic to my ears!
As a previous answerer has pointed out, clearly they are not interchangeable when there's a comparison involved --- but then that's an entirely different construction, isn't it?
Best of luck, and thanks to all for stimulating discussion
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Chris Rowson (X)
: That´s just how it is for my British ears, too. Oddly, it´s the opposite of Hazel´s proposal.
12 hrs
|
|
Thanks, Chris --- glad to know my ears are not alone!
|
11 hrs
Bryan Crumpler
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
Prepared, precise, & professional!
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, US South, British, UK, Irish, South African, US, Australian, Indian, Canadian, New Zealand)
Works in: Dutch to English, Flemish to English, Afrikaans to English, and 3 more.
no distinction, it simply avoids redundancy
One of the great characteristics of the English language is having a myriad of ways to express the same thing. Being able to take advantage of this is much of what distinguishes better writers from others. For example, if you have an essay that always uses "as well as" in place of "and" (or vice versa - pending the proper context) then it tends to sound redundant - and a bit overdone if "as well as" is always used. So using a combination of these throughout the text simply avoids redundancy.
So, IMO it's just a matter of literary style...
So, IMO it's just a question of literary style...
Huh? Am I repeating myself or what???
Honestly, there's no big difference... they're both grammatically correct and get across the same idea. The same thing goes for "as long as" and "so long as". If you want to make a distinction, then you're perfectly within your right to make up one. No one is going to misinterpret anything if "so long as" is written as opposed to "as long as" in the two _conditional_ contexts given above. I say "conditional" because using "as long as" can also be used in terms of similes (i.e. "the waiting line is as long as a mile"). In this case, substituing "so long as" would probably be the closest to "sloppy" as it gets.
So, IMO it's just a matter of literary style...
So, IMO it's just a question of literary style...
Huh? Am I repeating myself or what???
Honestly, there's no big difference... they're both grammatically correct and get across the same idea. The same thing goes for "as long as" and "so long as". If you want to make a distinction, then you're perfectly within your right to make up one. No one is going to misinterpret anything if "so long as" is written as opposed to "as long as" in the two _conditional_ contexts given above. I say "conditional" because using "as long as" can also be used in terms of similes (i.e. "the waiting line is as long as a mile"). In this case, substituing "so long as" would probably be the closest to "sloppy" as it gets.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: I think in your last example, I'd say so long.. was downright wrong. And by the way, isn't the 'correct' usage 'myriad', with neither 'a' nor 'of'?
12 hrs
|
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