Nov 18, 2005 10:50
18 yrs ago
2 viewers *
English term

...seemingly difficult to solve...

Non-PRO English Art/Literary Other
"There lurks in the name a contradiction, seemingly difficult to solve."

This is a sentence pertaining to the name "Etudes-Tableaux" - a series of pieces written by Rachmaninov.
I humbly ask my esteemed colleagues to smooth the sentence out a little, as it sounds rather contorted to me.

TIA
Change log

Nov 18, 2005 11:02: Ian M-H (X) changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Discussion

PAS (asker) Nov 18, 2005:
Name/ title The text refers to etudes-tableaux as a genre (which it is, IMO), hence "name".
PAS (asker) Nov 18, 2005:
Yow. That's why I like asking ENG mono questions! They always result in an interesting discussion.
1. I am asking if a rewrite is necessary. 2. The contradiction is between the word "study" - implying a dry, technical exercise and the word "picture/ painting" - implying colour, imagery, pictorial qualities (Dusty got this spot-on). I appreciate your view that the sentence is fine as is, but I just wanted to see if it could be tightened up a bit. 3. the missing 're' in "solve" is my omission. 4. re "seemingly" - it is not a contradiction if the word study is taken as Chopin and Liszt understood it - really a concert miniature, a full-fledged performance piece.
Whew. Thanks for the contributions.
Richard Benham Nov 18, 2005:
I think that the slightly contorted nature of the sentence is quite appropriate for the apparent genre of writing here. As I said, I think "resolve" (or "reconcile") would read better than "solve", however.
PAS (asker) Nov 18, 2005:
I understand what the sentence says. I would like to make it read more smoothly. (Unless it's OK as is).

Responses

8 mins
Selected

reems difficult to resolve

The name conceals a contradiction which seems difficult to resolve.

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Note added at 37 mins (2005-11-18 11:27:31 GMT)
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Correction:
SEEMS difficult to resolve.
Peer comment(s):

neutral airmailrpl : reems ?? it seems the seams are coming apart in reams
21 mins
Yes, they are! Sorry!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Jack, and thank you all for your contributions. This answer is what I was looking for - so easy, just replacing the comma with "which". I also took the liberty to use the word "reconcile" instead of "resolve". I acknowledge that some answerers said that the original sentence is OK, but I just felt it had to be changed... Thanks again, Pawel Skalinski"
2 mins

something which is contradictory (opposite) which would appear difficult to solve

hope this helps

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Note added at 6 mins (2005-11-18 10:57:08 GMT)
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It is perfectly okay and reads well. You can keep it as it is.
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+11
3 mins

I'm not sure what your problem is, but....

The name contains a contradiction. The contradiction appears to be difficult to resolve. Now what don't you understand?

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Note added at 12 mins (2005-11-18 11:02:35 GMT)
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Hello PAS. I think the sentence is fine as it stands for musical criticism, except that "resolve" would seem more natural than just "solve".
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : Quite!
1 min
Thanks, Dusty.
agree Dave Calderhead : I completely concur
13 mins
Thanks, DC.
agree Derek Gill Franßen
29 mins
Thanks.
agree Lori Dendy-Molz : also prefer "resolve" here
1 hr
Thanks. It now seems that "resolve" is what PAS intended anyway.
agree Tania Marques-Cardoso
1 hr
Thanks, TM.
agree Besmir (X)
1 hr
Thanks.
agree Brie Vernier
1 hr
Thanks Brie.
agree Will Matter
4 hrs
agree transparx
6 hrs
agree Jo Macdonald : Resolve breaks the flow imo. How about this? There lurks in the name, a contradiction; seemingly difficult to solve.
13 hrs
agree Rajan Chopra
3 days 1 hr
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+1
2 mins

it appears to be difficult/hard to solve

but, in fact, it probably isn't

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Note added at 4 mins (2005-11-18 10:54:40 GMT)
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in the name in question there is a contradiction, and this contradiction seems to be difficult to solve

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Note added at 7 mins (2005-11-18 10:57:56 GMT)
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actually, I think it's okay as is; all I was suggesting is that you can use "it appears" or "it seems" instead.

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Note added at 16 mins (2005-11-18 11:06:34 GMT)
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sorry, of course, it would have to be "...which appears to be difficult to solve" --this is what I meant...but you know that!

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Note added at 38 mins (2005-11-18 11:29:09 GMT)
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Just for the record, "resolve" is perfect, but "solve" can also be used. You can find many references --and I mean books, not sites that may have been sloppily written.
Here's one: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=-ruyxp1MKg0C&pg=PA281...

The title is "Social Anthropology and Language," by Edwin Ardener, a native speaker, I believe. And you can easily find other refs on your own on "google print"
Peer comment(s):

agree Richard Benham : I never said "solve" was completely wrong, BTW, but it would seem more appropriate to problems, mysteries, puzzles, etc. than to contradictions.
1 hr
thank you Richard! It's very nice of you to acknowledge my answer.
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48 mins

A seemingly difficult contradiction lurks in the name

"There lurks in the name a contradiction, seemingly difficult to solve."
=>

A seemingly difficult contradiction lurks in the name
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+2
13 mins

that is apparently difficult to solve

It isn't quite clear from your question exactly what is giving you trouble here. Are you asking us to polish up something you're trying to translate, or to clarify your understanding of it?

However, there IS a possible ambiguity in the sentence that only the following text may reveal.

The use of 'seemingly' here could mean one of two things:

1) The contradiction inherent in the name (I assume you've got that one: 'études' would be 'studies', possibly preliminary to painting a picture, whilst 'tableaux' suggest finished pictures) might appear at first sight to be contradictory, (but as the author goes on to explain, in fact it isn't...)

2) There appears to be an inherent contradiction in the name, (and the author goes on in some way to argue about this, without actually claiming that there isn't in fact any contradiction...)

IS it contradictory? I'm not sure... perhaps these musical 'études' are intended to convey visual 'images' --- that's certainly always the way I've viewed these pieces by Rachmaninov

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Note added at 18 mins (2005-11-18 11:09:11 GMT)
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Ah, now we know a bit more about what you wanted!

I'm with RB about the use of 'resolve', and I would also suggest you might try 'title' instead of 'name' --- for a piece of music or a painting (or indeed any other work of art) we most often talk about 'title', as in: "the author chose to title this work..." or "Now we're going to play a piece entitled..."

I would also like to see 'the' replaced by either 'this' or 'that', depending on the surrounding context, unless, of course, it is such as to absolutely demand 'the'. "There lurks in the title..." could be suggesting that it lurks there, rather than somewhere else in the piece, whereas I think "There lurks in this (or: that) title..." makes it crystal clear that we are talking about "this particular title the composer has chosen"

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Note added at 2 hrs 15 mins (2005-11-18 13:06:14 GMT)
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Thanks, PAS, for your latest added remark regarding the use of the name "études-tableaux" as a genre, rather than a specific title; as key surrounding context, this of course then totally justifies the use of 'the'.


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Note added at 7 hrs 13 mins (2005-11-18 18:03:32 GMT)
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...and also 'name', as you quite rightly point out.

In essence, then, there's really nothing in your sentence that needs 'smoothing', IMHO.


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Note added at 7 hrs 23 mins (2005-11-18 18:14:06 GMT)
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To contribute my three ha'p'orth to the interesting (if peripheral!)debate about irreconcilable vs. unreconcilable.

Naturally, I am fully aware that the word in un- DOES indeed exist (and has done so since the late 16th century), and the mere fact that the revered OED says that it is now 'rare' is no reason for not using it (on the contrary, perhaps it needs reviving); we are all aware that traditional dictionaries are to some extent only representative of a 'frozen' moment in time, and living language moves a lot faster than the OUP!

However, using another tool of the modern era, Google (which despite its many shortcomings can indeed be useful at times), which to some extent could be considered to reflect trends in modern usage (since it does take into account a great deal of very dynamic, up-to-date material, and is probably weighted against older texts), I was interested to note that irreconcilable 'scored' almost 2,000,000 hits, whereas unreconcilable ony managed around 29,000 --- not quite 'nul points' by Eurovision standards, but a surprising ratio nonetheless.

However, my primary objection to the use of 'unreconcilable' is more to do with euphony --- to my mind, the sentence reads so much more smoothly with the almost-elided "...seemingly irreconcilable..." than it does with "...seemingly unreconcilable...", that alone would discourage me personally from using it.
Peer comment(s):

agree Richard Benham : I think you are right about the alleged contradiction. [...]//"This" might be better, but I take PAS's point about the generic nature of "Etudes-Tableaux".
6 mins
Thanks, RB! // Yes, indeed, now we have added info, I agree; I'd never thought of it that way myself -- but I'm no musicologist!
agree Derek Gill Franßen
19 mins
Thanks, Derek!
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-1
9 mins

a seemingly unreconcilable contradiction

there lurks in the name a seemingly unreconcilable contradiction

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Note added at 21 mins (2005-11-18 11:12:17 GMT)
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You've got your defendant, who has to have some element of genuine mystery at
the core, some unreconcilable contradiction. Wealthy kidnap victim and ...
www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/articles/A8330-2005Mar28.html

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Note added at 28 mins (2005-11-18 11:19:08 GMT)
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or
there lurks in the name a seemingly IRreconcilable contradiction

i hope it sounds a lot smoother :-)

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Note added at 57 mins (2005-11-18 11:47:49 GMT)
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also a bbc link with 'unreconcilable':

The BBC website for Hereford and Worcester. Listings, reviews and news of Clubs, gigs and music. ... Underworld mixed elements of what were unreconcilable styles including ambient, house, techno and dub with pop ...
www.bbc.co.uk.../songwriting_competition_judges.shtml

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Note added at 1 hr 2 mins (2005-11-18 11:53:03 GMT)
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to dusty: the bbc link is dated 21 june 2004, and i understand bbc articles are written by educated native speakers of english.

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Note added at 7 hrs 25 mins (2005-11-18 18:15:55 GMT)
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oh, the dusty's 'disagree' has been removed.
i also find it rather ermmm ... - 'picky' of RB to disagree with me on such a technicality as un- / ir- reconcilable. i think he should have agreed with me that my suggestion sounded the smoothes of them all :-) and pointed out the ir- option instead, unless, of course, his motives were not linguistic.

also, my right to agree or disagree on this site has been removed without any warning. how very strange!

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Note added at 7 hrs 27 mins (2005-11-18 18:17:41 GMT)
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smoothesT :-)

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Note added at 1 day 9 hrs 10 mins (2005-11-19 20:00:52 GMT)
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oh, in case you were wondering - in the eng-eng section non-native speakers are not supposed to question any english texts believed to be written by natives - hence the attempts to EXPLAIN the meaning (instead of improving it) and arrogant statements like 'what is it that you don't understand?' etc. and even emphasising how wonderful the contortedness is in this particular genre etc. it never occurred to them (well, at least in the beginning) that it was written by you and you just wanted to see if it was ok or a bit contorted :-) . pathetic, when you come to think of it, isn't it?
Peer comment(s):

disagree Richard Benham : I think you mean "irreconcilable".
5 mins
also 'irreconcilable' see the washingtonpost link if you think the word doesn't exist
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