Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
carrure
English translation:
bar structure
Added to glossary by
Victoria Britten
Jun 11, 2014 07:22
9 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term
carrure
French to English
Art/Literary
Music
conducting
This is a Conservatoire conducting class. The students are asked how they set about getting into a new score. This student says that, having read it through as many times as needed for it to be clear to him, "J'essaie d'établir une forme et puis après les **carrures**". It is a documentary film, so it is just possible I'm mis-hearing, but the rest of what he says is entirely unambiguous.
Proposed translations
(English)
3 | bar structure | David Vaughn |
4 -1 | symmetrical phrasing | Nikki Scott-Despaigne |
Proposed translations
1 hr
Selected
bar structure
"Phase" or "phrasing" is probably the most ordinary English translation, but it is uncomfortably ambiguous, referring more often to melodic phrasing. So considering these are subtitles, I think this could work, being specific. It also is used, though more often referring to popular music - see Harvard Dictionary of Music, for example, or google.
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:38:00 GMT)
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PS - google does show results referring to Couperin & other purely classical contexts as well.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2014-06-11 13:18:13 GMT)
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As Nikki mentions, this answer risks being ambiguous because it might imply internal structure of the bar/measure. It may be more ambiguous in BE than AE, since at least in erudite "classical music" circles in AE, "bar" usually refers only to the bar line itself and not to the measure (in contrast with pop music and some BE usage).
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:38:00 GMT)
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PS - google does show results referring to Couperin & other purely classical contexts as well.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2014-06-11 13:18:13 GMT)
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As Nikki mentions, this answer risks being ambiguous because it might imply internal structure of the bar/measure. It may be more ambiguous in BE than AE, since at least in erudite "classical music" circles in AE, "bar" usually refers only to the bar line itself and not to the measure (in contrast with pop music and some BE usage).
Note from asker:
Thanks for this, David. |
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: It is to do with phrasing and structure, hence my suggestion of "phrasing structure". I have not been able to put my finger on one specific English term.//Def. of a symmetrical form of phrasing of melody, so concerns merlody///Bar structure suggests cell.
6 mins
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Hi Nikki. I'm afraid that any mention of phrasing will make people think of melody, which is sending the focus in the wrong direction. Someone should check Grove, but I think an English term may not exist.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks again for all your explanations"
-1
1 hr
symmetrical phrasing
phrasing structure
Explanation:
See my reference post.
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:53:26 GMT)
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"symetry of the phrasing" migth provide a more accurate representation of the French meaning. Your time codes may make this inaccurate. It is to do with phrasing of the melody but based on a specific symétrical structure.
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:53:31 GMT)
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might
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:56:17 GMT)
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symmetrical
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:03:03 GMT)
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"harmonic periods"???
Maybe "symmetrical phrasing" would work?
http://books.google.fr/books?id=MDZ4R52PcKAC&pg=RA2-PA22&lpg...
"Period Division.
A coherent melodic prhase must connect to the phrases before and after itself. There are two customary methods involved in so to say all types of period division. The methods are symmetrical phrasing (harmonic tension) and periods proper (rhythm groups)."
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:04:51 GMT)
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Search results for "symmetrical phrasing":
http://www.flashcardmachine.com/music-history-1theclassicale...
"Musical ideas constructed in regular phrases of four or eight measures. The first phrase usually ends with an open cadence and the second phrase with a closed cadence. This leads to a call and response in the music, and a consistent harmonic structure."
Go for it. For me that's it!!!
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:08:13 GMT)
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Sonata-rondo form is an example of symmetrical phrasing:
http://www.musicalmiracles.com/BGCSE/BGCSE_sonata_rondo_form...
http://mountdouglas.ca/webusers/mdinfotech/examples/ICTP 11 ...
"Classical Period, 1750 - 1825
Related Terms ~ Form ~ Chamber Music ~ String Quartet
♪ this historical period is also referred to as the Age of Enlightenment
♪ Masters of the Viennese school - Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert
♪ Italy was the center of musical activity in the Baroque - Vienna in the Classical Period
♪ composers fully explored possibilities offered by the major-minor system
♪ they perfected a large form of absolute music, the sonata, with its focus on structural balance
♪ they developed various types of sonatas: the solo and duo sonata, the Symphony, Concerto, trios, quartets and other types of Chamber music were developed in this era
♪ Romantic elements are present, especially in later works
♪ melodies are elegant, lyrical and based on symmetrical four-bar phrases with defined cadences"
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:12:00 GMT)
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From the classical, through jazz and rock to writings on John Lennon :
http://books.google.fr/books?id=tk7Wrqsir6gC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA...
"There is a good reason why JL's Ticket to Ride is so singable : its symmetrical phrasing. Itilizing a standard 8-bar section..."
Explanation:
See my reference post.
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:53:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"symetry of the phrasing" migth provide a more accurate representation of the French meaning. Your time codes may make this inaccurate. It is to do with phrasing of the melody but based on a specific symétrical structure.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:53:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
might
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:56:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
symmetrical
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:03:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"harmonic periods"???
Maybe "symmetrical phrasing" would work?
http://books.google.fr/books?id=MDZ4R52PcKAC&pg=RA2-PA22&lpg...
"Period Division.
A coherent melodic prhase must connect to the phrases before and after itself. There are two customary methods involved in so to say all types of period division. The methods are symmetrical phrasing (harmonic tension) and periods proper (rhythm groups)."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:04:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Search results for "symmetrical phrasing":
http://www.flashcardmachine.com/music-history-1theclassicale...
"Musical ideas constructed in regular phrases of four or eight measures. The first phrase usually ends with an open cadence and the second phrase with a closed cadence. This leads to a call and response in the music, and a consistent harmonic structure."
Go for it. For me that's it!!!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:08:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sonata-rondo form is an example of symmetrical phrasing:
http://www.musicalmiracles.com/BGCSE/BGCSE_sonata_rondo_form...
http://mountdouglas.ca/webusers/mdinfotech/examples/ICTP 11 ...
"Classical Period, 1750 - 1825
Related Terms ~ Form ~ Chamber Music ~ String Quartet
♪ this historical period is also referred to as the Age of Enlightenment
♪ Masters of the Viennese school - Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert
♪ Italy was the center of musical activity in the Baroque - Vienna in the Classical Period
♪ composers fully explored possibilities offered by the major-minor system
♪ they perfected a large form of absolute music, the sonata, with its focus on structural balance
♪ they developed various types of sonatas: the solo and duo sonata, the Symphony, Concerto, trios, quartets and other types of Chamber music were developed in this era
♪ Romantic elements are present, especially in later works
♪ melodies are elegant, lyrical and based on symmetrical four-bar phrases with defined cadences"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 09:12:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
From the classical, through jazz and rock to writings on John Lennon :
http://books.google.fr/books?id=tk7Wrqsir6gC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA...
"There is a good reason why JL's Ticket to Ride is so singable : its symmetrical phrasing. Itilizing a standard 8-bar section..."
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
David Vaughn
: Not in this context. The conductor is simply cuttin the piece into its structure. While this structure may indeed most often be pseudo-symetrical, the conductor still has to find the structure. In much 15th &20th century music this will not be symetrical
19 mins
|
I see what you mean, but when you read the definitions of the references, "symmetrical" is often pseudo-sym. by your definition. The Akser may just stick to "phrasing".
|
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
carrure définition en français
"Carrure
Nom féminin.
Symétrie établie entre les divisions de la phrase musicale, de manière à partager celle-ci en fragment d’une durée égale. On applique spécialement l’épithète de carrées aux formes mélodiques dont les périodes procèdent par 4 et multiples de 4 : une phrase de 8 mesures partagées en deux membres égaux de chacun 4 mesures; une phrase de 16 mesures partagée en 4 fragments de 4 mesures. Les maîtres anciens, qui écrivaient principalement pour les voix et sans couper leur notation de barres de mesure, ne s’astreignaient à la carrure que dans les pièces destinées à accompagner la danse; c’est de là qu’elle s’est imposée à la musique instrumentale, et, pendant l’époque classique, à tous les genres de compositions."
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:27:34 GMT)
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I don't meet criteria officially, but Royal Schools of Music Grade V theory, Grade 7 piano and Grade 8 bassoon, way back in the 1970's!
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:38:37 GMT)
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Here's a shorter definition in French, which may be helpful although I suspect oversimplified: http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/carrure
"Répartition d’une phrase musicale en mesures égales."
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:49:46 GMT)
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No worries Victoria. I'm curious to know if there is an EN term for this. I've put the question to my brother, composer/producer but he may be busy and take time coming back.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-06-11 11:03:20 GMT)
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http://mjcj.com/WordPress/?page_id=395
Symmetrical phrasing – gives a sense of repose. Romantics went for assymetry of form
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-06-11 11:07:45 GMT)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(music)
"There is generally a pause in the melody in a cadence at the end of the shorter lines so that the underlying musical meter is 8:8:8:8 beats, the cadences dividing this musically into two symmetrical "normal" phrases of four measures each (MacPherson 1930, 14)."
"Changing meter[edit]
In twentieth century concert music, it became more common to switch meter—the end of Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is an example. A metric modulation is a modulation from one metric unit or meter to another. The use of asymmetrical rhythms also became more common: such meters include quintuple as well as more complex additive meters along the lines of 2+2+3 time, where each bar has two 2-beat units and a 3-beat unit with a stress at the beginning of each unit. Similar meters are used in various folk music as well as some music by Philip Glass. Additive meters may be conceived either as long, irregular meters or as constantly changing short meters."
" In classical music, the four bar hypermeter is a commonly observed practice, constituting the basis of symmetrical phrasing."
Phrasing and "-meter" are related of course as "meter" describes measure.
Nom féminin.
Symétrie établie entre les divisions de la phrase musicale, de manière à partager celle-ci en fragment d’une durée égale. On applique spécialement l’épithète de carrées aux formes mélodiques dont les périodes procèdent par 4 et multiples de 4 : une phrase de 8 mesures partagées en deux membres égaux de chacun 4 mesures; une phrase de 16 mesures partagée en 4 fragments de 4 mesures. Les maîtres anciens, qui écrivaient principalement pour les voix et sans couper leur notation de barres de mesure, ne s’astreignaient à la carrure que dans les pièces destinées à accompagner la danse; c’est de là qu’elle s’est imposée à la musique instrumentale, et, pendant l’époque classique, à tous les genres de compositions."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:27:34 GMT)
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I don't meet criteria officially, but Royal Schools of Music Grade V theory, Grade 7 piano and Grade 8 bassoon, way back in the 1970's!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:38:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here's a shorter definition in French, which may be helpful although I suspect oversimplified: http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/carrure
"Répartition d’une phrase musicale en mesures égales."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 08:49:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
No worries Victoria. I'm curious to know if there is an EN term for this. I've put the question to my brother, composer/producer but he may be busy and take time coming back.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-06-11 11:03:20 GMT)
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http://mjcj.com/WordPress/?page_id=395
Symmetrical phrasing – gives a sense of repose. Romantics went for assymetry of form
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-06-11 11:07:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(music)
"There is generally a pause in the melody in a cadence at the end of the shorter lines so that the underlying musical meter is 8:8:8:8 beats, the cadences dividing this musically into two symmetrical "normal" phrases of four measures each (MacPherson 1930, 14)."
"Changing meter[edit]
In twentieth century concert music, it became more common to switch meter—the end of Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is an example. A metric modulation is a modulation from one metric unit or meter to another. The use of asymmetrical rhythms also became more common: such meters include quintuple as well as more complex additive meters along the lines of 2+2+3 time, where each bar has two 2-beat units and a 3-beat unit with a stress at the beginning of each unit. Similar meters are used in various folk music as well as some music by Philip Glass. Additive meters may be conceived either as long, irregular meters or as constantly changing short meters."
" In classical music, the four bar hypermeter is a commonly observed practice, constituting the basis of symmetrical phrasing."
Phrasing and "-meter" are related of course as "meter" describes measure.
Note from asker:
Thanks, Nikki. I only asked (unless my mouse slipped) for the field to be an "interest" one, and I'm very grateful for the time you've spent on this! |
Discussion
I prefer it to "bar structure" which suggests a structure within a bar as a unit (for which I believe the term is "cell" by the way), whereas the French "carrure" describes how the bars fit together in a structure.
"I try to identify the form, and then smaller units of structure."
This quote from your reference sums up the problem with "symmetrical phrasing" as a translation of carrure in this context. Notice the student's article use, "les carrures". "Carrure" is used here metaphorically to stand for units of musical meaning larger than a measure. It is not used to refer only to the symmetrical structures or only to additive structures it refers to in some more specific contexts. If we were talking about those contexts, then "symmetrical phrasing" would be perfect. But since the speaker's idea is larger than this limited definition of carrure, the translation can't work.
In one musical context, the translation is just. In another, it is completely misleading. Especially since symmetrical phrasing is not really a "set phrase", but rather the obvious meaning of these words in context, and so the emphasis is placed on the word "symmetrical". Compound this with the ordinary musical usage of phrasing being melodic rather than rhythmic (unlike carrure), and the reader is sent off in several false directions, but not in the right one.
WIth reference to meter though: see ref additional post.
It's a bit like meter (beats) but for bars/measures.
As I understand it, the carrures are the next largest regular building block, but on a structural level that may be different from the phrasing of melody.