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Jul 22, 2010 14:53
13 yrs ago
Russian term

кирпичная оградка

Russian to English Other Architecture
I know it when I see it...what the heck is this thing called in English? It can't be a fence, which is not made out of brick, or an enclosure, which would be higher.

The description is of the roof of a school in Grozny.

Крыша с трёх сторон обнесена кирпичной оградкой - в полметра высотой
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 brick parapet
4 brick wall
Change log

Jul 22, 2010 14:53: changed "Kudoz queue" from "In queue" to "Public"

Discussion

rns Jul 22, 2010:
To me, it's just a conversation, interesting, if a bit heated at times.

A masterpiece or not, well, how do we know for sure? :)
Gene Selkov Jul 22, 2010:
choose your battles wisely rns: I understand your frustration; furthermore, if I knew this phrase was a nugget of a masterpiece, I would spend a couple days and nights with you and Rachel brainstorming a perfect translation, but it just does not seem to be the case. I don't think it has any hidden nuances in it, or any purpose other than to set the scene.
rns Jul 22, 2010:
:) Well, a parapet is nothing more than a shortcut for a low brick wall on a roof and parapet sounds just fine, just because it's a familiar word. And it's in a dictionary. So be it.

However, if a writer cared that his words always sound like coming from somebody, who "knows English", we would still have nothing to read but Beowulf.
Gene Selkov Jul 22, 2010:
native speakers differ in styles Rachel, to imagine how it sounds like to a Russian native, note that the word has a diminutive suffix, so it sounds like "a little brick fencie" -- not entirely normal in Russian either. Not something I would say, for sure. My feeling is that this expression has a dual purpose: (1) it portrays an object of a small size (maybe just 4-5 bricks tall), and, very likely, the speaker was not entirely comfortable with the choice of the word; in such a case, some of us would use diminution to convey the sense of uncertainty. I myself never do that, but I recognize the pattern. I would still translate it as "parapet", because relating such a nuance without parentheses or footnotes does not seem feasible to me.
Rachel Douglas Jul 22, 2010:
The eye of man hath not heard, the ear of man... Granted, I can't "hear" how "кирпичная оградка" sounds to a native speaker of Russian, but I assure you that "brick fence" (on a roof), whether low or high, just sounds like it comes from somebody who doesn't know English.
rns Jul 22, 2010:
Russian original says a thing I've never heard of Крыша с трёх сторон обнесена кирпичной оградкой — There was a low brick fence on the three sides of the roof.

Writing things nobody has ever heard of is how Prilepin got famous.
Gene Selkov Jul 22, 2010:
definitely dosen't cut it Have never heard of a "roof fence", although the etymology seems ideal. Look what I've found:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q="hide behind t...

"hiding behind the parapet" is a popular metaphor! Haven't heard it either, but would certainly understand it at once.
Rachel Douglas Jul 22, 2010:
Fences v. things on rooftops Somehow, having a "fence" of any sort on top of a roof doesn't cut it. I'm thinking that if Deborah wants to avoid "parapet" as too much of an architectural term, it might work to say "brick guard wall."
rns Jul 22, 2010:
I'd agree; considering that in the context, — http://2.ly/caya — they hide behind that wall while on duty watching the wartime Grozny, ‘roof fence’ would be even better.
Gene Selkov Jul 22, 2010:
brick fence Just to note that "brick fence" is a perfectly normal combination. A fence is everything that (de)fends; just as fine if it is made of bricks. On top of a building or a bridge, it is "parapet". Why? Dunno. Has something to do with breast height (akin to Brustwehr).

Proposed translations

+2
6 mins
Selected

brick parapet

Webster's: a low wall or similar barrier; esp : one to protect the edge of a platform, roof, bridge, or other structure.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2010-07-22 18:40:17 GMT)
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For avoiding the architectural term "parapet," given the colloquial nature of the text:

brick guard wall

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2010-07-22 18:41:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The idea being that if you use "wall," it's necessary to qualify it, otherwise it sounds as if there's a big, high wall running three-quarters of the way around the rooftop - even if the half-meter height is mentioned.
Note from asker:
"went with low wall" triggered by Webster you posted :-)
went with "low brick wall" triggered by Webster and your suggestion of providing a modifier to "wall"
Peer comment(s):
agree Alexander Onishko
3 mins
Thanks, Alexander.
neutral rns : parapet is great and architecturally accurate. Prilepin just doesn't sound this way, I'm afraid. / Fair enough and, for the record, parapet surely isn't arcane and I hoped I wasn't saying that :) Perhaps just fence, per Gene's word, would cut it better.
24 mins
Thanks for the observation. You obviously know more about the context than I do; I only read the description, and wrote what popped into my mind. But, for the record - "parapet" is not some arcane term. (But, Deborah knows that already.)
agree Gene Selkov
1 hr
Thanks, Gene.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
12 mins
Russian term (edited): кирпичной оградкой

brick wall

A fence is a brick walling; that's a roof, hence a brick wall.
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