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Oct 5, 2008 09:52
15 yrs ago
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French term

revisité l’héritage dont il était pourtant le dépositaire

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
Back at work after a too-short but much-needed holiday, and now I am having a sunny Sunday afternoon brain block to boot!

In this biography of Polidoro da Caravaggio, I can't seem to get away from the terribly heavy and awkward construction of the likes of:
"revisited the heritage of Antiquity and the Renaissance, for which he was nonetheless the repository."

Any suggestions for smoothing it out are greatly appreciated!

Parmi les talents qui ont fleuri autour de Raphaël à partir de 1515 environ, et dont l’œuvre a atteint des sommets après sa mort en 1520, Polidoro da Caravaggio occupe une place à part. Naturellement doué, ignorant des voies académiques, et affranchi de la tutelle raphaélesque, il va se laisser aller à son instinct de dessinateur.
**Peu de peintres, sans doute, ont, autant que lui et aussi singulièrement, revisité l’héritage de l’Antiquité et de la Renaissance dont il était pourtant le dépositaire. **
Peu ont atteint ce que l’on pourrait appeler une « beauté monstre ».
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 taken such a fresh approach to the legacy that had been passed on to him
3 +1 reappraised the tradition to which he was the heir
3 +1 ... so particularly and individually transformed the C & R heritage that even he was heir to.
4 guardian OR most ardent defender
3 Despite the C&R legacy bestowed upon him, his reinterpretation of these values was...
3 despite being privy to that legacy ... reinterpreted to such an extent ...
3 adapted and preserved the legacy (from ...)
3 drawing on [antique and Renaissance] heritage, he was, nonetheless, its heir / successor
References
Why 'pourtant'?

Discussion

Helen Shiner Oct 6, 2008:
Revisit, etc. I completely disagree with you. To rework one has to engage philosophically/historically, it is integral to the process. I do not think anywhere I have argued for a separation. Polidoro looked to older traditions, took what he wanted from them and then came up with his own individualistic take on them. 'Revisit' is used, but is considered sloppy amongst professional art historians. Terminology of a more sophisticated kind should be sought.
French Foodie (asker) Oct 6, 2008:
I just wanted to say that I really and truly appreciate all the time and discussion going into this question. I am still mulling it all over... :-)
B D Finch Oct 6, 2008:
Re art historical terminology There are perhaps two questions to consider:
a. terminology in general use in art historical texts,
b. philosophical and historical understanding and engagement.

We are, of course, dealing with the linguistic aspect of this. However, I do not think that we can separate this from some philosophical consideration of art practice. Whether or not "re-work" or "reinterpret" are in common use in art historical texts if they do not correctly describe what Polidoro did and if one thinks that the source text describes it better, then they are not the words to use here.

"Revisit" is about looking at traditions in a profound way and coming out with new ideas that develop them. Why is that "naff"?
Helen Shiner Oct 6, 2008:
Response As an art historian myself, I agree with revisit - though think it is naff, draw upon, but re-read is weak and does not convey what is happening here. I do not agree with reappraise. Re-work or reinterpret, possibly are in quite normal use in art historical texts. The point is that the artist here DID retain elements of the tradition to which he became guardian, whilst reworking others. If he had done something completely else, then he would neither have been reappraising nor would he have been termed its heir.
B D Finch Oct 6, 2008:
Revisiter? I have discussed this question with my partner, who is an artist and former university lecturer in fine art. He thinks that "revisited", "re-read", "drawing upon" or "reappraised" would be appropriate, but not "reworked" (which implies retaining the spirit while changing the style), "reinterpreted", or "adapted" (which lacks the necessary philosophical engagement).

Proposed translations

+1
23 hrs
Selected

taken such a fresh approach to the legacy that had been passed on to him

IMO "le dépositaire" does not imply he was the only one to receive the 'legacy', so no need to fret about 'sole' heir/custodian or the like.
The "pourtant" is implied here, at that time a pupil would be expected to continue working within the 'inherited' tradition, the fact that he didn't keep strictly to it is in itself the contrast suggested by the French word, no need to make it heavily explicit in English.
I won't defend "fresh approach" with my life as art-history-speak, it's just an attempt to broaden the options presented in our answers.
Peer comment(s):
agree Emma Paulay : Agree with all your comments, David!
1 hr
neutral Helen Shiner : Sorry, but the legacy was not passed on to him - that is far too active. //Whether or not this text is for art historians - and you might have told us, French Foodie, the legacy is still not passed to him!!
9 hrs
The legacy/tradition was passed on to him (and others) by Raphael's (and others'?) influence/example/mentoring. As far as he was concerned it wasn't active, he was a recipient. Then "He chose to assimilate..." as you suggest.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I want to thank everyone very much for all the time, effort and in-depth discussion that went into this question. In the end, for the purposes of my text, which is for the general public and not art historians, I decided to keep it as simple as possible. David's comments were very helpful in that respect. Thanks again, everyone!"
+1
58 mins

reappraised the tradition to which he was the heir

I'd take the liberty of omitting "pourtant", as its meaning can be supplied by the reader and/or conveyed elsewhere in the text. I hesitated about the definite article before "heir", but it would alter the meaning too much to leave it out.

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Note added at 1 hr (2008-10-05 10:55:54 GMT)
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Possibly "whose scion he was", "of which he was the scion"? That could be a more extreme and riskier claim.
Peer comment(s):
agree jean-jacques alexandre
3 hrs
Thanks jean-jacques.
neutral Helen Shiner : 'Rework' is a term used in art history when someone looks to an precedent and revises it in some way. On the problem of tenses, see my comments to ormiston's peer comment to me.
4 hrs
See my discussion comment. He did more than "rework" the tradition. What exactly are the things that were happening "simultaneously"? Could they have been other than simultaneous?
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs

... so particularly and individually transformed the C & R heritage that even he was heir to.

C & R = classical and renaissance (no room)
Beginning of sentence: No other artists...
Peer comment(s):
agree Helen Shiner : Agree with the first part, but don't think 'even he' is right stress; it sounds as if he didn't quite deserve it.
1 hr
You may be right; "even" was to carry the meaning of "pourtant."
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4 hrs

Despite the C&R legacy bestowed upon him, his reinterpretation of these values was...

Based on the info in the ref I posted, I think "singulièrement" means "extremely" or "in a peculiar way" rather than "remarkably" (all three are definitions given in Collins Robert).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Helen Shiner : Sorry. but this meaning is incorrect; nobody bestowed this legacy on him. As an artist of the period he would have had to respond to this heritage if he wanted to be up with the times./Yes, Raphael, but a choice not bestowing.
18 mins
If he was an heir, then he received a legacy. Actually, I meant to note that my main aim here was to suggest starting with "Despite..." and to give my opinion on "singulièrement".//Raphaël's legacy?
neutral B D Finch : An artistic heritage isn't passively "bestowed", it has to be actively adopted or engaged with.
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

despite being privy to that legacy ... reinterpreted to such an extent ...

Doubtless there can be few painters who, like Caravaggio, - despite being privy to that legacy - reinterpreted to such an extent and so distinctively the artistic traditions of Antiquity and the Renaissance

My take on this: I think it's important to weave the "pourtant" in somewhere to bring out the fact that despite the fact that he has the A+C legacy at his fingertips, (from his training with Raphael for instance) he was one of the artists who reworked it and refashioned it to give his very own distinctive style
Reference:

http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?12;s=3409200570;r=1;nat=;sol=1;

Peer comment(s):
neutral Helen Shiner : I don't think 'being privy' is appropriate here, but reinterpretation could work./I don't know what you mean by 'secret' here; he looked to it for inspiration, sought to rework it, not copy it.
36 mins
but he held the secret to the the art of Antiquity and Renaissance and yet he refashioned it in his style
neutral B D Finch : I agree with Helen's comment on "being privy". It was no secret, it was literally plastered all over the walls of public buildings!
18 hrs
Ok I accept your comments but what I meant that he held the secret (although he wasn't alone in this) to mastering this art - the art was of course everywhere - but not everyone understood and mastered it, let alone had the faculty of reinterpreting it!
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10 hrs

guardian OR most ardent defender

Just commenting that "depositaire" is not simply the idea of inheriting, but also of being the "most ardent defender". A heir is a much lesser role.

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Note added at 10 hrs (2008-10-05 20:18:17 GMT)
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OR an heir ;-))
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1 hr

adapted and preserved the legacy (from ...)

I agree that the 'pourtant' is tricky - the apparent contradiction might be that he 'BOTH tapped into' and at the same time safeguarded such classic traditions.
what about
"(few have so remarkably/successfully....) adapted and preserved the legacy (from the past)

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Note added at 2 hrs (2008-10-05 12:12:47 GMT)
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SO... the 'pourtant' means despite his lack of academic training, his fringiness etc. he carried as it were the 'flame' of classic tradition ? Help from Asker ???!

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Note added at 22 hrs (2008-10-06 08:45:43 GMT)
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French Foodie you have so much to digest here, but we are all so keen to get it right for you ! From peer input I think the best tack is to use 'both' or 'while' to get round the contradiction of 'pourtant' - the sense being that he adapted / updated (gave an original twist to)...while (nevertheless) being a custodian of this legacy. Hard make it flow! Good luck !
Note from asker:
Hi Ormiston, unfortunately, this paragraph is the only info I have on the artist. Emma's reference seems quite relevent, however.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Emma Paulay : I like 'adapted' and 'legacy' but am not so sure about 'preserved'. My impression is that he readapted to a great extent despite his legacy.//Yes, but I have no knowledge of history of art. See what you make of the info in my ref.
9 mins
aha ! so that's where you sense the 'contradiction' lies - you may be right. Do you think the 'dont' refers to both eras ?
neutral Helen Shiner : I agree with your first understanding of the contradiction. Despite his reworkings of the tradition, he became its heir./Custodian better than heir and guardian!
3 hrs
rather than 'heir' then perhaps CUSTODIAN ?
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16 mins

drawing on [antique and Renaissance] heritage, he was, nonetheless, its heir / successor

Few painters, it is true, drew as heavily on the antique and Renaissance heritage - or - on the works of their antique and Renaissance forebears, ultimately carrying their mantle

Some disjointed suggestions. The last clause because I don't really understand the 'nonetheless' and because 'of which ...' is so clumsy.

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Note added at 57 mins (2008-10-05 10:49:56 GMT)
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or perhaps 'guardian' for 'dépositaire'?

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Note added at 1 hr (2008-10-05 10:54:57 GMT)
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'reworked the ... heritage whose mantle he would ultimately carry'

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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-10-05 15:07:13 GMT)
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Few painters, it is true, reworked the antique/classical and Renaissance heritage to the extent that he did, and in such an individual way, even though he would become its guardian/heir... or even though he was simultaneously its heir/guardian.

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Note added at 6 hrs (2008-10-05 16:17:37 GMT)
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I like ormiston's custodian.

In general terms, this is a strange sentence. No one painter is ever sole heir to a tradition; they might be the main player, but the only one? I think this makes the any translation of the sentence problematic, but since that is what it says in the source text...

I know it looks like I am all over this question like a rash, but as an art historian myself, I must say that like many other areas, it is important to get the tone/vocabulary right, as well as the meaning. Apologies to my esteemed colleagues....

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Note added at 1 day28 mins (2008-10-06 10:20:53 GMT)
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Perhaps this will help:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gt5gtrqoKOIC&pg=RA1-PA164...

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Note added at 1 day47 mins (2008-10-06 10:39:08 GMT)
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The more I read about Polidoro I find it strange that he should be considered as the heir or successor or guardian or whatever to the traditions in question. It seems he retained the spirit of Raphael in his work, but was otherwise very individualistic, and not very conventional at all in his approach. It was impossible for professional artists at the time not to respond to both the classical and the Renaissance traditions, so I am not sure that that in itself is saying very much. Raphael had other pupils who would have more closely taken up his mantle in terms of style, philosophical approach, etc.

Another link which describes his work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polidoro_da_Caravaggio

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Note added at 1 day10 hrs (2008-10-06 20:49:21 GMT)
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I hope some of these examples might help you.

"Chiang's painting of the Budai Monk is an example of the Chinese artist's reworking of canonized images and cultural legacy. It is common for an artist in China to (re)present an existing classical or canonized piece. Such a re-working presumes the viewer's knowledge of the earlier work."
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-3562402/The-travelin...

Johannes Phokela re-works iconic images by European 'Old Masters', including Rubens, Bruegel, Jordaens and Jacob de Gheyn. Referring to art historical reproductions, Phokela frequently transforms the gender and race of key figures in his original source material. The results are dramatic and unsettling images that challenge nationalistic and ethnic narratives around contemporary and historical art.


Phokela links these re-interpretations of Dutch Golden Age painting with the development of the Enlightenment movement, and with the colonisation of the African continent. Whilst Phokela's work weaves a personal history into the canon of Dutch and Flemish old master painting, his practice stands as an examination of the violent actions of the Dutch in South Africa, as much as an inquiry into the history of painting.
http://www.absolutearts.com/artsnews/2002/05/15/29919.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SIHop-1WHvYC&pg=PA31&lpg=...

"The Byzantine Empire, which lasted from 330 until 1453, inherited the territories and cultural traditions of the Eastern Roman Empire. Drawing upon the art of classical Greece and Rome, Byzantine artists continued the naturalistic tradition in their depictions of the human form."

http://www.getty.edu/news/press/exhibit/byzantium.html
Peer comment(s):
neutral ormiston : no need for apologies - it's fun to battle it out, and this is why it was posted! I am now sure that the writer sees him as custodian of classic traditions EVEN THOUGH he branched off (but the emphasis is on his original slant)
22 hrs
I agree with this - though it would make just a little more sense if there was a separation in terms of tenses - i.e. of which traditions he would become a custodian, but if it is not in the text....
neutral B D Finch : I don't agree with "custodian", Polidoro was sufficiently sensitive to the tradition to be able to develop it, thus keeping it alive. To me "custodian" reeks of cobwebs and stagnation.
23 hrs
That is a narrow view of 'custodian', but I agree it is probably not the best of all options.
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Why 'pourtant'?

Because, he was a kind of "rebellious disciple":

Polidoro est donc un autodidacte sans formation académique. Ce parcours qui avait laissé longtemps libre cours à l’instinct et à l’intuition, a été comme une invitation à subvertir les principes et les images du classicisme, que ceux-ci se trouvent dans des bas-reliefs romains ou des modèles raphaélesques. Ce n’était pas par rébellion que Polidoro agissait ainsi, mais sa manière de les magnifier était d’entrée de jeu irrégulière. A cela s’ajoute un tempérament fiévreux, bien perceptible dans ses dessins rapides, inaboutis et parfois frénétiques, une vision quasi monochrome et plutôt sombre du monde, une attention égale à la force de l’art d’un Michel-Ange et à l’expression populaire du réel. Confronté plus tard aux exemples de l’art du Nord colportés par l’estampe (Dürer, Lucas de Leyde), son art trouve un nouveau ressort.

Les dessins de Polidoro ont très tôt été recherchés, dès le XVIe siècle, des artistes ont recueilli les dessins de Polidoro. Son prestige en tant qu’élève de Raphaël a permis, au XVIIe siècle, d’assurer à ses dessins une place de choix dans des collections privées.



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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-10-05 15:30:32 GMT)
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Malgré sa formation classique auprès de Raphaël et de Giovanni da
Udine sur les chantiers du Vatican, Polidoro da Caravaggio ne
s’inscrit pas vraiment dans la continuité artistique de son maître.
http://www.louvre.fr/media/repository/ressources/sources/pdf...

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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-10-05 15:32:25 GMT)
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Polidoro da Caravaggio est avant tout connu en Europe pour être l’élève de Raphaël. Néanmoins, loin de tout classicisme, Polidoro a su très tôt s’affranchir de cette tutelle pour réaliser des dessins originaux par leur force qui n’est pas sans rappeler celle de Poussin.
http://www.restonsenforme.com/20080118/polidoro-da-caravaggi...
Reference:

http://www.artactu.com/polidoro-da-caravaggio-dessins-du-louvre-article00108.html

Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral B D Finch : Very useful references. While they explain the "pourtant", they still don't IMO make it non-redundant as this context will be supplied by the rest of the article and the reader's knowledge.
22 hrs
neutral Helen Shiner : In one source you have him an autodidact, in another close to Raphael and in the last a pupil of his!! My sources would corroborate the latter. But how strange!
1 day 7 hrs
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