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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Jun 11, 2014 09:23
9 yrs ago
63 viewers *
French term

possession d'état

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
court case involving ordering of genetic testing

XXX is registered as the father of the child but is probably not the biological father. The child is very young. XXX is now dead.

"Dans les conditions données le tribunal considère ... qu'en l'occurrence l'intérêt de l'enfant, qui n'a aucune possession d'état à l'encontre de XXX, consiste à être fixé sur la réalité de sa filiation, plutôt que de rester dans l'incertitude à ce sujet ..."

From Bridge I get, for "possession d'état", "actual enjoyment of a certain civil status", "public acceptance of a person's status", "de facto enjoyment of a certain status". What to make of "à l'encontre de XXX" then?

It appears from the sentence as given that the lack of "possession d'état à l'encontre de XXX" is one reason at least why the child's interests are considered to be best met by clarifying the biological reality of its parentage. So if it did have "possession d'état à l'encontre de XXX", it appears to be said, this might be a strong enough reason NOT to do genetic testing...
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 (has no) legal status
3 +1 legal civil status ... arising out of affiliation to XXX
4 affiliation
3 the parents' attitude towards the child
References
Qu'est ce que la possession d'état?

Discussion

Tim Webb Jun 11, 2014:
Mpoma The emotional relationship is only one of the five criteria for possession d'état.

BD Finch: I see your point, but in US legal jargon, parenthood has the meaning I was referring to. See: http://law.hofstra.edu/pdf/academics/journals/lawreview/lrv_...

1. De Facto Parenthood
A de facto, or psychological, parent is a common law concept that defines a parent “by virtue of a parent-like, caretaking role in relation to the child.” This test defines nonbiological parenthood by functionality. If the coparent acts like a parent, meaning he or she cares physically and emotionally for the child in a parental capacity without an expectation of compensation, the court may find him or her to be a de facto parent.

This definition of parenthood takes the emphasis off of genetic connection, and focuses on real-life interaction; a parent is a person who parents a child.

Sounds very much like possession d'état to me .... (but don't mention the "common law concept"!!)
Mpoma (asker) Jun 11, 2014:
parentage/parenthood see my comment about Daryo's ref entry. I'm suggesting "parentage" is about biology but actually "parenthood" is sthg that in law can be acquired regardless of biology. So I'd personally agree with Tim on this one: "absence of childhood of a parent" must be put another way. The thing I'd like to put is "who does not have any emotional relationship with XXX"... surely the court's position is that the only thing which could possibly trump the wish to enlighten the child through genetic testing would be a strong emotional bond. But the trouble with this is that it's not a translation, it's an interpolation (however credible!)
B D Finch Jun 11, 2014:
@Tim I'm afraid I don't think that to claim "parenthood of a child" sounds natural. Surely, one would claim to be a child's parent? Parenthood is the state/condition of being a parent, having to get up in the middle of the night to feed and change nappies, enduring constant claims on one's energy, patience, time, wallet, ears etc. plus, of course all the nice aspects. Legally, one might claim parental rights and duties.
Tim Webb Jun 11, 2014:
@Mpoma There are many examples of "de facto parenthood", but what makes this ST "difficult" is that it takes a different standpoint by referring to "de facto childhood" (ie de facto affiliation).

To claim "parenthood of a child" sounds natural. To claim "childhood of a parent" is, well, just weird, hence the difficulty finding an appropriate translation. But that is the way it is seen in French law - a child can claim "possession d'état" to get a judge to declare, in an acte de notoriété, who the child's legal parents were (usually after death of a parent).
Evgeny Artemov (X) Jun 11, 2014:
then why not "in relation to" as was suggested here earlier?

Also, if you see it this way (so do I now), will "confirmed" or "proven" or "official" before "legal civil status" help?
Mpoma (asker) Jun 11, 2014:
"affiliation" (parentage) is a red herring the court knows many things... but it emphatically does not know whether XXX is the father of the child. So when the court asserts "l'enfant ... n'a aucune poss. d'état à l'encontre de XXX" we know they are NOT talking about "affiliation" (parentage)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 11, 2014:
The Bridge definition is one definition, but it does not, in my humble opinion, fit with the meanings provided under the Code Civil, particularly the definition under the provisions of art. 311.- as they apply to the circumstances set out in the post.

@Mpoona. If you say that XXX is currently the de facto father, that means you are saying XXX is the father in fact. If you say that XXX is the de jure father, that means he is the father according to the law. XX is either the de facto papa, or the de jure papa. He cannot be both!

That aside, that matter is not anything to do with the term "possession d'état". That is quite simply and unequivocally as provided under the terms of the Code Civil.

Etablissement de la possession d'état :
o en matière de filiation : code civil, art. 311-1 et s. et 317
o en matière de nationalité française : code civil, art. 32-2 et s.
Evgeny Artemov (X) Jun 11, 2014:
Nikki is right and legal civil status ... arising out of affiliation to XXX looks closest to home if not the only solution meeting two conditions: it does the job and remains legal. It's court language m'learned friends will deal in the UK, I presume.
Mpoma (asker) Jun 11, 2014:
@dear all yes, what I like about Tim's suggestion (in the discussion here, not his answer) is the choice of the 3rd Bridge definition, which has the words "de facto"... the father of the child is for the moment XXX, and that is a legal relationship, but XXX is not a "de facto" (for that read emotional) father-figure (or any figure) in the child's life. This is what I take to be the gist. How it should be phrased for and by m'learned friends in UK I haven't a clue.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 11, 2014:
@Tim Except this is about one of the two very specific meanings of "possession d'état" under the French Code civil and so in my view, there is every reason to use legalese. However, the idea of legalese is not to blind folk with science, but to convey specific meaning with the right term in the circumstances.

THis is not to do with a "certain" status, this is all to do with a very precise meaning of legal and civil status which can be enjoyed if established.
Tony M Jun 11, 2014:
Surely... ...the issue here is that as the child has never had any 'real' status with respect to its late father, the least it might have is the 'technical' status of knowing who its biological father was?

Many people here seem to be reading this almost the other way round...
B D Finch Jun 11, 2014:
@Tim As XXX is now dead, it would be hard for him to act like a father towards the child. Establishing biological fatherhood would not change XXX's behaviour to the child in the past, so it must be about legal status and the various aspects of the child's interest, when it is older, in having certainty about whether or not XXX was its biological father.
Mpoma (asker) Jun 11, 2014:
@Tim06 this is the exact same def as the third Bridge one I gave. And yes, I'm tending to think you're right about the gist... though I think getting the correct legal expression is important.
Tim Webb Jun 11, 2014:
De facto enjoyment of a certain status This is the Harrap's/Dalloz translation of possession d'état, which is more meaningful than "possession of status".

I think we can all understand the basis meaning of the text - the child has no one who acts like a father towards him (or, as in the ST, no one he can say has acted as though he was his son).

Now all we have to do is put that into sensible English. IMO, there is no need to opt for legalese when ordinary language will do a better job.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 11, 2014:
@Mpoona "Possession d'état... à l'encontre de XXX". What do the XXXs stand for here?
Evgeny Artemov (X) Jun 11, 2014:
D'accord But it's hardly general use.
Legal writers use it, and not always because they don't bother to find a better term (rather, for the same reason they keep rue in addresses instead of "street").
The UN translator (supposed to be good) uses both (in order to keep the term, I presume):
It is now possible to establish filiation for illegitimate children, either through recognition or through paternity proceedings, where the child does not have possession of status consistent with the birth certificate (art. 315) or where the mother contests the child’s paternity in order to have the child recognized by the real father, married after the dissolution of her marriage.

B D Finch Jun 11, 2014:
Possession "Possession", or the verb "to possess" are not generally used in English with regard to status. The preferred verb in this context is "to have".
Evgeny Artemov (X) Jun 11, 2014:
"possession d'état", as term of art is an established French legal presumption, used here in a court document. I am not sure it can be rendered descriptively.
I found a few EN texts (incl. two UN docs in FR and EN supposed to be authentic) using this, and the EN goes for literal translation: "possession of status".
As for "à l'encontre de", "in relation to" fits, I think.

Proposed translations

38 mins
French term (edited): possession d\'état

the parents' attitude towards the child

I think this can only be translated with an explanation of the French term:

La possession d'état découle de l'attitude du [père] à l'égard de l'enfant : il l'élève comme le sien, s'occupe de son entretien et de son éducation. La possession d'état doit être continue, paisible, publique et non équivoque.

The child cannot consider that XXX is his real father as he does not have an unbroken, uncontested, publicly-known and unequivocal relationship with him [possession d'état], so it is in his interest to know who his biological father actually is ....
Reference:

http://danc.free.fr/famille/filiat.htm#1.1.2

Peer comment(s):
neutral B D Finch : While that is enlightening, it does not translate the term posted.
48 mins
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : The term "possession d'état" has two specific meanings udner French law : one relating to nationality, the other to affiliation. The 2nd notion is the relevant one here and that has to be conveyed. This suggestion does not address the question being asked
3 hrs
I admit my suggestion is inappropriate, I made a dismal attempt to sum up my explanation so it would fit in the answer box. There is no snappy answer, IMO, so a DB entry would have been wiser!
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+1
4 hrs
French term (edited): possession d'état ... à l'encontre de XXX

legal civil status ... arising out of affiliation to XXX

This suggestion can be improved upon. My own criticism of this suggestion is that it is almost an overtranslation. However, the difficulty is that given the two possible meanings of the term "possession d'état" under French law, I think it is essential to specify which meaning is intended, although it is obvious. Sometimes stating the obvious is necessary.

There are two ways in which « possession d’état » can be demonstrated under French law :filiation and nationality. Assuming that this is a matter of affiliation, the most likely way to go, judging by the context of course, then I’ve cited art. 311-1 of the French Code Civil. On the matter of affiliation generally, my third reference may help.

1 - http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichSarde.do;jsessionid=AD48...
•

Etablissement de la possession d'état :
o en matière de filiation : code civil, art. 311-1 et s. et 317
o en matière de nationalité française : code civil, art. 32-2 et s.



2 - http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=...


Article 311-1
• Modifié par Ordonnance n°2005-759 du 4 juillet 2005 - art. 2 JORF 6 juillet 2005 en vigueur le 1er juillet 2006
• Modifié par Ordonnance n°2005-759 du 4 juillet 2005 - art. 5 JORF 6 juillet 2005 en vigueur le 1er juillet 2006
La possession d'état s'établit par une réunion suffisante de faits qui révèlent le lien de filiation et de parenté entre une personne et la famille à laquelle elle est dite appartenir.

Les principaux de ces faits sont :

1° Que cette personne a été traitée par celui ou ceux dont on la dit issue comme leur enfant et qu'elle-même les a traités comme son ou ses parents ;

2° Que ceux-ci ont, en cette qualité, pourvu à son éducation, à son entretien ou à son installation ;

3° Que cette personne est reconnue comme leur enfant, dans la société et par la famille ;

4° Qu'elle est considérée comme telle par l'autorité publique ;

5° Qu'elle porte le nom de celui ou ceux dont on la dit issue.



3 - http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do;jsessionid=AD488...


Article 310 En savoir plus sur cet article...

Modifié par Ordonnance n°2005-759 du 4 juillet 2005 - art. 2 JORF
6 juillet 2005 en vigueur le 1er juillet 2006

Tous les enfants dont la filiation est légalement établie ont les mêmes droits et les mêmes devoirs dans leurs rapports avec leur père et mère. Ils entrent dans la famille de chacun d'eux.



4 - http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F15395.xhtml


Établissement de la filiation par possession d'état
Mise à jour le 04.01.2013 - Direction de l'information légale et administrative (Premier ministre) et Ministère en charge de la justice

Principe

La possession d'état est la prise en compte de la réalité vécue du lien de filiation. Elle s'établit par une réunion suffisante de faits qui révèlent le lien de filiation et de parenté entre un enfant et la famille à laquelle il est dit appartenir. Un acte de notoriété peut être demandé pour prouver la possession d'état. Il est délivré par le juge.


5 - http://www.etudier.com/sujets/le-rôle-de-la-possession-d-éta...

• La possession d’état

La possession d’état La possession d’état est une situation de fait qui offre toutes les apparences d’une situation de droit. Posséder un état, c’est en avoir l’apparence et être considéré en général comme titulaire de cet état. Elle occupe une place essentielle pour deux raisons principales :...

Premium1244 Mots5 Pages

• Etat unitaire et état fédéral
PARTIE 1 : LES PERSONNES : La personne au sens juridique du terme est un être susceptible de bénéficier de droits et qui dispose de la personnalité juridique. La personne est sujet de droit et elle n'est pas objet de droit. La personne s'oppose donc aux biens car les biens sont eux objets de dro...

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• État civil: la filiation
ETAT CIVIL : FILIATION La filiation est le lien de droit qui unit un enfant à son père et à sa mère. La réforme de la filiation appliquée depuis le 1er juillet 2006 a supprimé les anciennes notions de filiation légitime et naturelle et s’inscrit dans un double mouvement d’évolution...


6 - http://www.dacodoc.fr/role-possession-etat-droit-filiation-1...

Le rôle de la possession d’état en droit de la filiation

I. Le rôle de la possession d'état dans la preuve de la filiation
A. Les qualités de la possession d'état
B. La consolidation ou la fragilisation de la filiation

II. Le rôle de la possession d'état dans l'établissement de la filiation
A. L'établissement de la filiation
B. Contestation de la filiation


Résumé de l’exposé.

La possession d’état repose sur l’apparence. Elle est une notion originale qui est plus ou moins reconnue par le législateur, selon les époques, mais elle est un précieux complément en droit de la filiation.
Dans le cadre de l’ordonnance du 4 juillet 2005, le législateur lui a donné pour mission la stabilité des filiations. Les éléments constitutifs de lapossession sont inchangés et expliquent le rôle qui est le sien dans lafiliation.
La possession d’état se compose de trois éléments classiques: le tractatus, le nomen, la fama. Le tractatus, c’est la vie de famille, le comportement des proches, l’articles 311-1 du Code civil l’explique en ces termes: « cette personne a été traitée par celui ou ceux dont on la dit issue comme leur enfant ».
[...] Inversement, l’absence de la possession d’état autorise la contestation de la filiation. Contestation de la filiation: L’article 334 du Code civil précise que à défaut de possession d’état conforme au titre, l’action en contestation peut être engagée par toute personne qui y a intérêt dans le délai prévu à l’article 321 du Code civil Les conditions de l’action sont clairement énoncées. Premièrement, il ne faut pas qu’il y ait une possession d’état conforme au titre. Deuxièmement, une fois établie cette lacune, il faut prouver l’absence de paternité ou de maternité […]


For cross-referencing purposes : http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/49/introduction
Note from asker:
"neutral" - the link of "affiliation" (parentage) is as yet in doubt but not refuted
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tim Webb : Legal civil status would arise from a birth certificate. We know from the context that XXX is registered as the father but is probably not the father. The child was (in my opinion) never treated like the man's child (il n'a aucune possession d'état)
22 mins
Cf Code Civil, legal civil status can be affirmed by means other than birth cert. There are 2 definitions of the term, one with nationality, one with civil status; it is one or the other. The point is the translation of "possession d'état" acc to CC.
agree Evgeny Artemov (X)
37 mins
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+1
23 mins

(has no) legal status

I think that your parsing is awkward and that the sentence should be understood as follows:
//qui n'a aucune possession d'état// à l'encontre de XXX//. The child has no legal status in relation to XXX and it is proposed to remedy this by testing whether XXX was the biological father.

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-11 10:58:56 GMT)
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books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0415149584
Gill Jagger, ‎Caroline Wright - 1999 - ‎Social Science
"For example, the unmarried father has the legal status of parent but does not at present automatically acquire parental responsibility (in contrast to the mother ... "

www.cypnow.co.uk › News
'“The cases in this report show examples where children and their ... Across England around 145,000 children are cared for by people who are not their parents. ... to carers, if the child has the legal status of a looked-after child.'

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/.../698...
"Welfare of the child and the assessment of those seeking treatment. 9. • Licence ...... These set out who has the legal status of “mother” and “father” following ... "

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-06-11 13:20:35 GMT)
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www.dhsspsni.gov.uk/adopting_the_future-3.pdf
"The fact that agreement is required from each parent or guardian is also
problematic in that the term “parent” is not defined in the order and must be
interpreted in accordance with common law rules. Accordingly, the putative father
of an illegitimate child, who does not in law have parental responsibility for the
child, has no legal status in relation to the child and his agreement to the adoption
is not required unless he has applied for, and been awarded, parental responsibility
for the child (in which case his agreement as guardian of the child will be
required)."


https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-03-89-01541.pdf
"If the mother can t be located, the child has no legal status. Without legal status, permanent placement cannot be made."

eprints.hud.ac.uk/13037/1/ahodsonfinalthesis.pdf
by A Hodson - ‎2011 - ‎Cited by 1 - ‎Related articles
" ... guidance is contradictory as it does not acknowledge that an unborn child has no legal status and a pregnant woman maintains rights over her own body."

www.nzlii.org › Databases
"Private arrangements commonly involve the commissioning father providing his semen for use in .... P's social mother has no legal status in relation to the child."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2014-06-11 13:43:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It appears that the court has some reason to order the test to be done. I imagine that is because somebody has challenged the veracity of the registration of XXX as the child's father.
Note from asker:
I don't really know what you mean about my parsing... I agree with your parsing. "No legal status in relation to XXX" strikes me as a bit odd, as XXX is currently registered as the infant's father...
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Although based on the asker's own references, it sounds like not just legal but de facto status.
3 hrs
Thanks Phil. Indeed, this is about establishing the de facto status, which could create a legal status.
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Not sure about the term "legal status". I agree that it has to be read with "à l'encontre de XXX" to be understood.//I mean that given the 2 meanings of the term (nationality; civil status, both "legal"), see my post, you need to specify which one.
3 hrs
I think the additional references I have just posted show that my use of "legal status" or its absence is correct. The absence of legal status is not vague, though it would be vague to positively say somebody had legal status without saying what it was.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

affiliation

"who has no affiliation in respect of the putative father"
A term used in such proceedings

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2014-06-11 14:36:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"In any civil proceedings the fact that a person has been adjudged to be the father of a child in affiliation proceedings in the UK is admissible in evidence", s. 12 Child Evidence Act 1968
Note from asker:
Wow, "affiliation"... are you sure? Just that this is so close to the FR "filiation" (i.e. "parentage"). If you are sure do you think you might explain what it means, and also maybe give a ref or 2? I note you specialise in this field...
"affiliation proceedings": "legal proceedings, usually initiated by an unmarried mother, claiming legal recognition that a particular man is the father of her child, often associated with a claim for financial support" - but this is not what the text is saying. At the moment the paternity of the father is not known to the court.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Might be a little on the light side alone for a rendering, but this is what it is about. This has everything to do with affiliation, cf Code Civil , art 311-1.
3 hrs
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Reference comments

4 hrs
Reference:

Qu'est ce que la possession d'état?

"...

La Filiation

0. Notions

La filiation est le lien juridique qui unit un enfant à ses parents. Que les parents soient mariés ou non, tous les enfants sont aujourd'hui égaux devant la loi.
Les discriminations entre enfants légitimes et naturels ont été abrogées.

retour au sommaire

I. La filiation

1. L'établissement légal de la filiation

1.1. Comment prouver la filiation légitime ?

Il existe trois moyens :
- Le titre : est l'acte de naissance inscrit sur les registres d'état civil
- La possession d'état
- La reconnaissance.

1.2. Qu'est ce que la possession d'état?

La possession d'état découle de l'attitude du couple à l'égard de l'enfant : ils l'élèvent comme le leur, s'occupent de son entretien et de son éducation. La possession d'état doit être continue, paisible, publique et non équivoque.
Elle doit être constatée par acte de notoriété. ..."

[http://danc.free.fr/famille/filiat.htm#1.1.2]
Note from asker:
Revealing. That way of proving "filiation" to be legitimate is absent from the Bridge and Navarre definitions, where "filiation" appears to be a simple matter of biology, as does "affiliation" (EN) as in "affiliation proceedings". I'd suggest "filiation" = "parenthood including status of legal parenthood" as opposed to "parentage" (biological)
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : In accordance with the Code Civil : "Etablissement de la possession d'état : o en matière de filiation : code civil, art. 311-1 et s. et 317 o en matière de nationalité française : code civil, art. 32-2 et s."
39 mins
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