| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Let's get back to what this forum is all about | Jun 25, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
In any event, I reiterate we're not talking about translation skill here, we're talking about being truthful about one's native language.
I think we already established a few pages back that there ain't no Conrads here. Let's stop dwelling on exceptions.
This is NOT about:
Being "qualified" to translate into a source language because of a degree, certificate or any other piece of paper.
Self-assessment. A native speaker is not an 'acquired' skill. you were either born into a language or you weren't. It's that simple. If you grew up and were educated in a second language, then it's feasible that you have 2 native languages.
This is also NOT a forum about:
Whether or not non-natives should be working into other people's languages. Again, it's about being professional and honest enough to admit that is what you are offering as a professional translator, without trying to camouflage the truth by hiding being a bogus native speaker claim. People should use the 'About me' space on their profile to sell their skills, but be honest about their native language.
This forum IS for asking the powers that be to stop the flood of bogus native language claims for once and for all and ask people to remove the false claims at the top of their profile page.
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 11:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Good point, Cetacea; and: getting back to topic | Jun 25, 2012 |
Cetacea wrote:
Maybe exasperated. And somewhat amused because every once in a while (see above), posters admit what this recurrent issue is really about: not nativeness in general, but nativeness in (British) English.
1. That is a good observation -- I didn't even see that until you pointed it out.
2. Mind you, this thread had two distinct drivers, namely those who are more concerned with multiple native language abuses, and those who are more concerned with abuses related specifically to English, even as the only declared native language.
So, to "get back on topic", perhaps the topic needs to be specified: is this thread about verifying English nativeness of non-UK/US/ANZ residents, or is this thread about verifying those who claim more than one native language?
| | | | | Ways of strengthening the system are being studied; if you suspect fraud, report it | Jun 25, 2012 |
Means of further verifying native language or level of proficiency in a language, and of allowing members to show this, are currently being studied. The matter is under internal evaluation at this point, and no estimate for a finished implementation has been made yet. Improvements in this area, when ready, will be released to the Certified PRO Network. Note that while verification of a native language may be an indicator that a person does indeed have X as a native language, it is not a substitu... See more Means of further verifying native language or level of proficiency in a language, and of allowing members to show this, are currently being studied. The matter is under internal evaluation at this point, and no estimate for a finished implementation has been made yet. Improvements in this area, when ready, will be released to the Certified PRO Network. Note that while verification of a native language may be an indicator that a person does indeed have X as a native language, it is not a substitute for thorough screening of a language professional's experience and qualifications before a work relation or other collaboration begins.
If you suspect fraud or any other violation of site rules, as always, please submit the details to site staff using the online support system so that they can be looked into and acted on if need be.
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What I think... | Jun 25, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
So, to "get back on topic", perhaps the topic needs to be specified: is this thread about verifying English nativeness of non-UK/US/ANZ residents, or is this thread about verifying those who claim more than one native language?
It didn´t even cross my mind that this topic could only related to English nativeness but to abuse of the false native claims in general. It happens that English seems to have more liars than any other language, but that´s all. I have nothing to do with English but I support the idea as a whole.
And I think this thread is about verifying those who claim 2 or more native languages. Because people who clearly lie about one of them would hardly state this language as her/his only native language, would they?
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:45
Hebrew to English
| Can we stop being disingenuous now? | Jun 25, 2012 |
I'm not sure why this has become a "British" thing all of a sudden. It's not about varieties of English at all. There are features shared by ALL varieties of English and there's still a big difference between dialectal variations between native Englishes and non-native interlanguage.
The natives arguing for a clampdown on bogus native language claims on this thread are by not only British, but American too. So I wish you wouldn't try to cloud the issue by casting aspersions and maki... See more I'm not sure why this has become a "British" thing all of a sudden. It's not about varieties of English at all. There are features shared by ALL varieties of English and there's still a big difference between dialectal variations between native Englishes and non-native interlanguage.
The natives arguing for a clampdown on bogus native language claims on this thread are by not only British, but American too. So I wish you wouldn't try to cloud the issue by casting aspersions and making out it's just a bunch of little Englanders with our post-colonial imperialism. We're on page 16 now, and this is the first time a variety of English has been mentioned by anyone, and it wasn't by a native.
Nuff said. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Yes, there are people who drop their real native language | Jun 25, 2012 |
Nani Delgado wrote:
And I think this thread is about verifying those who claim 2 or more native languages. Because people who clearly lie about one of them would hardly state this language as her/his only native language, would they?
Hi Nani,
To answer your (rhetorical) question, it's yes. There are people who list their 'dream' native language as their sole native language and simply omit the language they were born into, grew up and were educated in. I know of several (verifiable) examples of this. Just in my pairs alone.
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Hi writeaway,
Well, I have never noticed it and thought this would be the crown of all lies and nobody would act that way, but I believe you saying that it actually happens. However, for this kind of cases, I already suggested to always have the possibility to report obvious doubts to site staff even if a person only has listed one native language, in addition to Lisa´s suggestion to implement a kind of "peer review" for everyone that wants to list a second native language (or more... See more Hi writeaway,
Well, I have never noticed it and thought this would be the crown of all lies and nobody would act that way, but I believe you saying that it actually happens. However, for this kind of cases, I already suggested to always have the possibility to report obvious doubts to site staff even if a person only has listed one native language, in addition to Lisa´s suggestion to implement a kind of "peer review" for everyone that wants to list a second native language (or more).
So basically we would have peer review only for those ones with more than one native language, but with the option to report abuse in any case if there are serious doubts. That´s not much and would not hurt any of us honest professional translators. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Bit of both? | Jun 25, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Cetacea wrote:
Maybe exasperated. And somewhat amused because every once in a while (see above), posters admit what this recurrent issue is really about: not nativeness in general, but nativeness in (British) English. 1. That is a good observation -- I didn't even see that until you pointed it out. 2. Mind you, this thread had two distinct drivers, namely those who are more concerned with multiple native language abuses, and those who are more concerned with abuses related specifically to English, even as the only declared native language. So, to "get back on topic", perhaps the topic needs to be specified: is this thread about verifying English nativeness of non-UK/US/ANZ residents, or is this thread about verifying those who claim more than one native language?
The idea did not meet with universal support, but FWIW:
on Page 3 of the thread, Charlie Bavington wrote:
FWIW, I do see this issue as being one that seems to mainly rile translators into English from FIGS, and the impression that English speakers are trying to protect their turf seems hard to avoid. We wouldn't want a rule just for us, would we? Or would we?
Ty has since mentioned a similar issue with Hebrew.
It does seem that where there are dubious claims of >1 native language, English is involved more often than not.
[Edited at 2012-06-25 14:48 GMT]
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 17:45
Chinese to English
| "please submit the details to site staff" | Jun 25, 2012 |
There we go, we have an answer.
Now we can all play at being snitch. Tiresome, but as Robert suggested, possibly the best way.
| | | | Rob Grayson
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:45
French to English
| To ask the obvious question… | Jun 25, 2012 |
Given that site policy appears to be to come down hard on anyone who questions an asker's reported native proficiency in a KudoZ question, how much confidence can we realistically have that site staff will take such claims remotely seriously?
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:45
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Rob Grayson wrote:
Given that site policy appears to be to come down hard on anyone who questions an asker's reported native proficiency in a KudoZ question, how much confidence can we realistically have that site staff will take such claims remotely seriously?
Only one way to find out
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:45
Spanish to English
+ ...
| @Jared: I think we will all be interested to see what the follow-thru is on this issue | Jun 25, 2012 |
Jared wrote:
Means of further verifying native language or level of proficiency in a language, and of allowing members to show this, are currently being studied. The matter is under internal evaluation at this point, and no estimate for a finished implementation has been made yet. Improvements in this area, when ready, will be released to the Certified PRO Network. Note that while verification of a native language may be an indicator that a person does indeed have X as a native language, it is not a substitute for thorough screening of a language professional's experience and qualifications before a work relation or other collaboration begins.
If you suspect fraud or any other violation of site rules, as always, please submit the details to site staff using the online support system so that they can be looked into and acted on if need be.
Jared
The consensus here is that some general policy regarding the issue is expected, and not simply a general invitation to report fraud. (We would have to first define what "fraud" is, and that is where some general stand on the part of this site is so desperately needed).
Furthermore, given that a statement was posted some years ago by the site regarding an intent to "study the issue," it would seem reasonable that high priority be assigned to the issue now. Your vagueness in this respect is not reassuring.
[Edited at 2012-06-25 14:58 GMT]
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| KudoZ and site rules, and reporting serious concerns of fraud or other abuse | Jun 25, 2012 |
Rob Grayson wrote:
Given that site policy appears to be to come down hard on anyone who questions an asker's reported native proficiency in a KudoZ question, how much confidence can we realistically have that site staff will take such claims remotely seriously?
Hello Rob,
KudoZ participation is subject to site rules, just as every other area of the site. The channel to report suspected fraud or other violations is via the online support system, not in the KudoZ question itself. Making a comment like "You call yourself a native with that kind of answer?" is not in line with site rules for KudoZ participation, does little towards the purpose of the question, and would not necessarily indicate a report of fraud or other abuse. The fact that site rules are enforced in KudoZ has nothing to do with the seriousness, time and energy with which staff approach cases of suspected abuse which are reported.
Jared
| | | | | A starting point | Jun 25, 2012 |
Robert Forstag wrote: Jared wrote:
If you suspect fraud ... please submit the details to site staff using the online support system so that they can be looked into and acted on if need be.
Jared We would have to first define what "fraud" is, and that is where some general stand on the part of this site is so desperately needed).
To get the ball rolling and going for the plain English approach (so, avoiding terms such as "misrepresentation"), what about "deliberately making a statement that is untrue, for the purposes of generating income".
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Hi Robert,
Robert Forstag wrote:
The consensus here is that some general policy regarding the issue is expected, and not simply a general invitation to report fraud. (We would have to first define what "fraud" is, and that is where some general stand on the part of this site is so desperately needed).
In reporting abuse, it is a good idea to rely on http://www.proz.com/rules/ as a guideline. It is not always easy or simple to decide whether a site rule has been violated, but that is what staff do. If you feel a rule may have been violated, the best thing to do is report it.
Furthermore, given that a statement was posted some years ago by the site regarding an intent to "study the issue," it would seem reasonable that high priority be assigned to the issue now. Your vagueness in this respect is not reassuring.
[Edited at 2012-06-25 14:41 GMT]
Sorry I cannot be less vague at the moment. Without going into the issue of whether something has a high priority, how the priority gets set, etc., I can say that matters such as this do take a good amount of time, study and planning, considering potential impact (positive and negative) before an implementation materializes. The downside of this is that one may assume that nothing is being done when one does not see visible results yet.
Jared
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Should “native language” claims be verified? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
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