Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
bénéfice d\'ordre, de discussion et de division
English translation:
thus expressly accepting personal liability exhaustively, primarily and non-divisibly
Added to glossary by
suewiddicombe
Jun 24, 2014 08:05
9 yrs ago
15 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
Translations Italian / French to English
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, Italian to English
bénéfice d'ordre, de discussion et de division
French to English
Bus/Financial
Law: Contract(s)
Vehicle lease agreement
Hi, I have never come across this phrase before and am not sure what it means let alone how to translate it. Any suggestions? Many thanks
"AAA se porte caution solidaire, conformément aux dispositions de l’article 2288 et suivants du Code civil, du paiement de toutes sommes qui peuvent ou pourront être dues par BBB à CCC, en principal, intérêts, frais et accessoires de toute nature, échus ou à échoir, au titre d’un ou de plusieurs Contrats de Location de Véhicule, AAA renonçant ainsi expressément aux ***bénéfices d’ordre, de discussion et de division***".
"AAA se portera également caution solidaire envers CCC du respect en temps utile par la société BBB de toutes ses obligations, découlant de (...), renonçant ainsi expressément aux ***bénéfices d’ordre, de discussion et de division***."
"AAA se porte caution solidaire, conformément aux dispositions de l’article 2288 et suivants du Code civil, du paiement de toutes sommes qui peuvent ou pourront être dues par BBB à CCC, en principal, intérêts, frais et accessoires de toute nature, échus ou à échoir, au titre d’un ou de plusieurs Contrats de Location de Véhicule, AAA renonçant ainsi expressément aux ***bénéfices d’ordre, de discussion et de division***".
"AAA se portera également caution solidaire envers CCC du respect en temps utile par la société BBB de toutes ses obligations, découlant de (...), renonçant ainsi expressément aux ***bénéfices d’ordre, de discussion et de division***."
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 | thus expressly accepting personal liability exhaustively, primarily and non-divisibly |
Adrian MM. (X)
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| 3 -1 | hence waiving any order, contestation or division rights |
Mario Freitas
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Change log
Jun 24, 2014 12:19: Jessica Noyes changed "Term asked" from "\"bénéfice d\'ordre, de discussion et de division\"" to "bénéfice d\'ordre, de discussion et de division"
Proposed translations
7 hrs
French term (edited):
renonçant ainsi expressément aux bénéfices d'ordre, de discussion et de division
Selected
thus expressly accepting personal liability exhaustively, primarily and non-divisibly
It's the whole phrase with waiver that UK law firms usually turn rodund to make sense in EN, plus there are about 6 related entries in the KudoZ glossaries.
Waiving pleas of order (first exhausting remedies against the principal debotr before resorting to the guarantor), discussion/excussion and division may be on a hiding to nothing.
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Note added at 5 days (2014-06-29 13:44:24 GMT) Post-grading
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Well, as intimated, the phrase or permutaions and combinations thereof haven't been used at the law firm or chambers of Rufinus (gulp!), but has well served City of London and EU solicitors' firms, barristers' and judges chambers as well as probate and land registries etc. for the last 40 years during which NO puzzlement of lay or legal clients cf. constant complaints, ridicule and derision of renderings like 'expressly renouncing the benefits of order, discussion,/excussio and division'
Waiving pleas of order (first exhausting remedies against the principal debotr before resorting to the guarantor), discussion/excussion and division may be on a hiding to nothing.
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Note added at 5 days (2014-06-29 13:44:24 GMT) Post-grading
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Well, as intimated, the phrase or permutaions and combinations thereof haven't been used at the law firm or chambers of Rufinus (gulp!), but has well served City of London and EU solicitors' firms, barristers' and judges chambers as well as probate and land registries etc. for the last 40 years during which NO puzzlement of lay or legal clients cf. constant complaints, ridicule and derision of renderings like 'expressly renouncing the benefits of order, discussion,/excussio and division'
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Daryo
4 days
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Hvala et merci!
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| disagree |
Attorney DC Bar
: Not even close. Isn't this already in the glossary somewhere? This must have come up before.
4 days
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1. Not even close: wrong, used by City of London & Pan-European Magic Circle law firms: obviously not at your one. 2. Isn't this already in the glossary omewhere? not the complete phrase 3. come up before - doesn' t mean the (muddled) answers were right
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| neutral |
writeaway
: for starters, renoncer is to waive......../ah yes, Chomsky, the famous legal expert......... LSATs or not, renoncer still means to waive
4 days
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this is called lateral thinking or thinking out of the box, as in the US LSAT = Law School Admission Test, namely looking at the deep-structure MIT Prof. Noam Chomsky meaning. Waiving the benefit of those pleas means *accepting* the downside of liability.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks, Tom, hope you're right! Rufinus - did not find in glossary or would not have asked question but if you disagree, perhaps you could say why?"
-1
2 days 18 hrs
Mario Freitas
Brazil
Brazil
Native in English
Specializes in field
Brazil
32 years engineering/law/contracts
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
, Portuguese (Variant: Brazilian) 
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
hence waiving any order, contestation or division rights
Suggestion
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Attorney DC Bar
: No. Hasn't this ever come up before? I remember researching this for the first time 10 years ago...
2 days 3 hrs
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When you disagree, for a matter of ethics, you should say why and what is wrong in the suggestion. But you can't do that, right?
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Reference comments
14 mins
Reference:
www
http://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/discuter.ph...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garantie_autonome
http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?query=b�n�fice d...
3. Bénéfice de discussion. DR. ROMAIN et DR. CIVIL. Droit dont dispose la caution (non solidaire), le cédant d'une créance ou le tiers détenteur d'un immeuble hypothéqué de faire surseoir aux poursuites en exigeant du créancier qu'il discute en premier lieu la vente des biens du débiteur principal (attesté dans la plupart des dict. gén. du xixeet du xxes.).
4. Bénéfice de division. Droit accordé aux cautions non solidaires d'une dette d'exiger que le créancier divise ses poursuites et les limite à la part de chacune dans la dette (cf. Code civil, 1804, p. 216).
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/bénéfice
etc
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Note added at 42 mins (2014-06-24 08:47:20 GMT)
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http://www.conseil-droitcivil.com/article-droit-civil-1086-P...
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do;jsessionid=F109C...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garantie_autonome
http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?query=b�n�fice d...
3. Bénéfice de discussion. DR. ROMAIN et DR. CIVIL. Droit dont dispose la caution (non solidaire), le cédant d'une créance ou le tiers détenteur d'un immeuble hypothéqué de faire surseoir aux poursuites en exigeant du créancier qu'il discute en premier lieu la vente des biens du débiteur principal (attesté dans la plupart des dict. gén. du xixeet du xxes.).
4. Bénéfice de division. Droit accordé aux cautions non solidaires d'une dette d'exiger que le créancier divise ses poursuites et les limite à la part de chacune dans la dette (cf. Code civil, 1804, p. 216).
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/bénéfice
etc
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Note added at 42 mins (2014-06-24 08:47:20 GMT)
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http://www.conseil-droitcivil.com/article-droit-civil-1086-P...
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do;jsessionid=F109C...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Daryo
: most of it can be found nowadays in minutes, even seconds ...
2 hrs
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for sure
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| agree |
Attorney DC Bar
: Exactly. And both terms are also found in Cornu's legal dictionary, and even in Black's, if memory serves. So everybody but writeaway is just wasting Asker's time on this one. But Asker, if you are translating a legal text, surely you have Cornu?
5 days
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Discussion