| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Will it never end? (rates - how many more such insults to our profession must we take?) Thread poster: Henry Hinds
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| English to German appears to pay very good rates | Aug 10, 2008 |
Nadja Balogh wrote:
I do not think it is that bad yet in my language pair (English-German), and I was hoping that somebody more informed than me could comment on this.
[Edited at 2008-08-10 17:20]
Out of all the language pairs I have had any dealings with (also when outsourcing work), I have noticed that EN-DE translators get paid the most.
Astrid
| | | | Steven Capsuto 
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2004)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Kemal Mustajbegovic wrote:
Whenever this issue is risen the moderators and staff members pull same answer: this is a free market.
A load of b.., I say. This site, if it cares for translators, should raise the bar and set a certain standards. Because, as Henry says, it is an insult.
Kemal, (member until couple of weeks ago)
If I understand you correctly, you want the site to engage in illegal price fixing, the sort of thing that would leave the owners open to fines or worse. I can't understand why this sort of suggestion keeps coming up.
Viktoria's solution is legal, but I like knowing what general price range the outsourcer has in mind so I know not to waste my time responding.
[Edited at 2008-08-10 23:01]
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Steven Capsuto wrote: Kemal Mustajbegovic wrote:
Whenever this issue is risen the moderators and staff members pull same answer: this is a free market.
A load of b.., I say. This site, if it cares for translators, should raise the bar and set a certain standards. Because, as Henry says, it is an insult.
Kemal, (member until couple of weeks ago) If I understand you correctly, you want the site to engage in illegal price fixing, the sort of thing that would leave the owners open to fines or worse. I can't understand why this sort of suggestion keeps coming up. Viktoria's solution is legal, but I like knowing what general price range the outsourcer has in mind so I know not to waste my time responding. [Edited at 2008-08-10 23:01]
Dear Steven,
I fully agree with you that setting a minimum rate in ProZ would be a violation of the laws against price fixing and that Viktoria’s proposal, while probably legally “kosher,” it would also deprive us of needed information to decide whether we would be interested in submitting our bids. However, I cannot but share Henry Hinds’ indignation when I see postings such as the one he cited.
I must also disagree with those that say that an offensively low rate is an indication of a search for the low quality segment of the market. In pairs such as in the English-to-Spanish market, or even viceversa, those low rates are only an indication that the agency or outsourcer is looking to make a large profit on the projects they landed from the end-clients.
In many countries, the average monthly income of most professionals (of all professions) might be as low as USD 1.000 or even less. Thus, to reach that income, an overseas professional translator (one as good or even better than the average professional translator who is a member of ProZ) would need to translate from 30 to 40K words at 3 USD cents per word to reach that average compensation level, a doable task. He or she needs only to get a demand for his or her work sufficient to reach that production level. This is not to say that their lower compensation is justified because of the lower cost of living in their countries, but rather that is due to what they can get in their countries, fair or not. Can we, translators from more expensive nations, complain? Maybe they are right, maybe 3 cents per word is the "right” price, in this global economy, for certain pairs. We can only specialize and use all available tech tools to compete with them. If we can't, there are many other productive things we translators can do to make a living, or otherwise go the way that makers of buggy whips went (or, a very appropriate example from one that lives in South Carolina, the way that the U.S. textile industry went).
However, this does not mean that ProZ should be part of this lowering of prices. There are means to avoid this. Below I state a message that I think all prospective job posters should receive from ProZ. This message, I believe (although this should be checked by attorneys with expertise in dealing with price fixing attempts –I am a lawyer, but no expert in the area) is legally OK. I do believe that the proposed message, and the policy behind it, would not infringe any laws.
________________________________
It is the policy of this site not to publish rates other than in the aggregate to not allow the site to contribute to any potential price fixing scheme. However, to facilitate outsourcers' negotiations with freelancers, we do provide to posting outsourcers the average posted price (“APP”) from our freelance members.
For the pair [Source language 1 to Target Language 1], the APP is X USD cents [or Y eurocents] per word.
Given the prevailing market segmentation, please mark only one of the boxes below (a mandatory request):
The maximum suggested rate for this project is equal or above the APP
The maximum suggested rate for this project is below the APP
There is no maximum suggested rate for this project
This will the only acceptable indication of the market segment you are looking for. Posts stating “best rate”, “most competitive rate,” “volume rate” or similar statements will not be posted. It is our understanding that bidding freelancers will quote their “most competitive rate.”
_____________________________
Regards,
Luis
[Edited at 2008-08-11 02:43]
[Edited at 2008-08-11 02:45]
[Edited at 2008-08-11 03:03]
[Edited at 2008-08-11 03:07]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| The reason... | Aug 11, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
As always, I expect my post will go unanswered...
I don't think the fact that your post will go unanswered in this thread is a reflection of what the folks here think of you, Viktoria but remember the sole purpose of this thread is to rant and rave, not to find solutions.
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Steven Capsuto wrote: Kemal Mustajbegovic wrote:
Whenever this issue is risen the moderators and staff members pull same answer: this is a free market.
A load of b.., I say. This site, if it cares for translators, should raise the bar and set a certain standards. Because, as Henry says, it is an insult.
Kemal, (member until couple of weeks ago) If I understand you correctly, you want the site to engage in illegal price fixing, the sort of thing that would leave the owners open to fines or worse. I can't understand why this sort of suggestion keeps coming up. Viktoria's solution is legal, but I like knowing what general price range the outsourcer has in mind so I know not to waste my time responding. [Edited at 2008-08-10 23:01]
Did I mention "a price fixing"? I was referring to preserving a dignity of the profession, exactly what Henry is talking about. Thank you very much!
| | | | sal4trans
Local time: 08:45
Arabic to English
| Suggested Solution | Aug 11, 2008 |
I think a free market is good for all parties, and translators can form unions within the free market in order to sell their services at rates that is acceptable to those in the unions, but no one should be forced to sell their services at any other price than that of their choosing.
A good move to help translators sift through jobs would be to allow the outsourcers to specify rate ranges which are then identified with different icons next to the job postings. Another icon can be us... See more I think a free market is good for all parties, and translators can form unions within the free market in order to sell their services at rates that is acceptable to those in the unions, but no one should be forced to sell their services at any other price than that of their choosing.
A good move to help translators sift through jobs would be to allow the outsourcers to specify rate ranges which are then identified with different icons next to the job postings. Another icon can be used for example to show whether the job is urgent or not. I mean, five or six icons that give a general idea about the job would be a great idea. Also, translators can be offered the choice to seach through jobs based on these categories. Just like many don't seem to like to read 0.03 USD job postings, just as many or more translators are only interested in jobs that are in the 0.01-0.04 category, simply because the market(supply and demand) is there to satisfy both sides.
[Edited at 2008-08-11 06:02] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:45
Flemish to English
+ ...
Henry Hinds wrote:
"If your rate is above .03 USD per word please do not send your resume."
Obviously not a new subject. Just how many more such insults to our profession must we take?
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2008-08-10 19:34]
If you convert .03USD p.w. to euro, you have to pay to work....
| | | | Steven Capsuto
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2004)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Can you be more specific? | Aug 11, 2008 |
Kemal Mustajbegovic wrote:
Did I mention "a price fixing"? I was referring to preserving a dignity of the profession, exactly what Henry is talking about. Thank you very much!
I don't understand what you're proposing, then. Can you explain it?
If "preserving the dignity of the profession" means keeping outsourcers from asking for rates you consider too low, it's price fixing, no matter how prettily it's worded. Did you mean something else?
[Edited at 2008-08-11 08:17]
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| simply because the market(supply and demand) | Aug 11, 2008 |
This first and last thing; decides the market. If I am not having any job in hand I can accept @ $.01. If I have one in hand I demand .02 $ and if am hand full, I demand as I wish. (Here I consider that I feed myself just through freeeeelance and freeeeeeelance only!)
SAME WAY Company also has similar condition. As a company If I have urgency and less resorces in hand I pay high... and then just like that.
Besides there are dozens of variants like, long term contract, big task, gener... See more This first and last thing; decides the market. If I am not having any job in hand I can accept @ $.01. If I have one in hand I demand .02 $ and if am hand full, I demand as I wish. (Here I consider that I feed myself just through freeeeelance and freeeeeeelance only!)
SAME WAY Company also has similar condition. As a company If I have urgency and less resorces in hand I pay high... and then just like that.
Besides there are dozens of variants like, long term contract, big task, general translation, technical translation, use of cat tool and DT's and UI's and all that bla..bla..bla. This all we take in to account, when we start estimating for the translation.
Then where is the place to ask will it ever end; or take this as an insult of the profession. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
| What do other people think of this suggestion? | Aug 11, 2008 |
[quote]Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
However, this does not mean that ProZ should be part of this lowering of prices. There are means to avoid this. Below I state a message that I think all prospective job posters should receive from ProZ. This message, I believe (although this should be checked by attorneys with expertise in dealing with price fixing attempts –I am a lawyer, but no expert in the area) is legally OK. I do believe that the proposed message, and the policy behind it, would not infringe any laws.
________________________________
It is the policy of this site not to publish rates other than in the aggregate to not allow the site to contribute to any potential price fixing scheme. However, to facilitate outsourcers' negotiations with freelancers, we do provide to posting outsourcers the average posted price (“APP”) from our freelance members.
For the pair [Source language 1 to Target Language 1], the APP is X USD cents [or Y eurocents] per word.
Given the prevailing market segmentation, please mark only one of the boxes below (a mandatory request):
The maximum suggested rate for this project is equal or above the APP
The maximum suggested rate for this project is below the APP
There is no maximum suggested rate for this project
This will the only acceptable indication of the market segment you are looking for. Posts stating “best rate”, “most competitive rate,” “volume rate” or similar statements will not be posted. It is our understanding that bidding freelancers will quote their “most competitive rate.”
_____________________________
I found both the comments and the message proposed in this posting particularly valuable, so I'm quoting them and would like to know what other people think about them. This isn't ranting, this is a suggestion that deserves to be considered.
¡Gracias, Luis!
Lucía
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
If "preserving the dignity of the profession" means keeping outsourcers from asking for rates you consider too low, it's price fixing, no matter how prettily it's worded.
Spot on Steven.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 23:45
Greek to English
+ ...
| The issue DOES NOT start with the prices | Aug 11, 2008 |
If you send a little sketch to Boeing with an airplane and a few red lines here and there ("corrections") and a note "your airplane is not good", Boeing will think that you are a 5 year old child.
However, in the translation industry, you guys accept (and the project managers too), undocumented reviews of translations. Translators call each other incompetent through completely unsupported and undocumented reviews (undocumented reviews are not even accepted in high scho... See more If you send a little sketch to Boeing with an airplane and a few red lines here and there ("corrections") and a note "your airplane is not good", Boeing will think that you are a 5 year old child.
However, in the translation industry, you guys accept (and the project managers too), undocumented reviews of translations. Translators call each other incompetent through completely unsupported and undocumented reviews (undocumented reviews are not even accepted in high school). Then, they expect anyone to take them seriously!
"Dignity" of the profession? What profession? A profession that accepts completely undocumented reviews? That's not a profession, that's not even a serious hobby! Which high school or college or any other industry accepts undocumented reviews?
You should be the first ones to enforce High Standards in the translation practices:
No more undocumented and unsupported reviews of documents (this is the only industry on the planet which allows that, something that makes us all look like amateurs).
Do not accept any such reviews of your work from now on. Return them back as "unsupported and undocumented, thus unacceptable".
Do you know why I never read the agreements anymore (I just sign them and send them). Because in many cases, some of the articles in there violate provisions of the Uniform Commercial Code, therefore they are not enforceable anyway! This industry dares to comply to no standards whatsoever! We are a bunch of laughable amateurs: We accept illegal terms and undocumented reviews! What an industry! (imagine how it loos for me, with 12 years experience in the highly regulated financial/legal markets).
I had warned and others responded by mumbling things about free markets etc. The most experienced of you already know that the downward trend of prices is real and won't stop soon. We expect another 40% decrease (on average) by the end of 2009. It also affects the good agencies, not only the translators.
[Edited at 2008-08-11 13:25] ▲ Collapse
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Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 22:45
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Price fixing is impossible | Aug 11, 2008 |
I don't know the price fixing laws of my own country let alone others, but I would assume it is illegal in most places. Moreover, even if legal, it would only be possible in a near-monopoly situation where very few competitors have control of a market for a given good or service and conspire to make it a complete monopoly.
Our situation is the opposite extreme, with a very large number of individuals competing for jobs from a very large number of clients all over the globe. Thus I t... See more I don't know the price fixing laws of my own country let alone others, but I would assume it is illegal in most places. Moreover, even if legal, it would only be possible in a near-monopoly situation where very few competitors have control of a market for a given good or service and conspire to make it a complete monopoly.
Our situation is the opposite extreme, with a very large number of individuals competing for jobs from a very large number of clients all over the globe. Thus I think we can put to rest any worries about price-fixing, it is nothing that need concern us.
I do think that the ideas proposed by Viktoria and Luis could go a long way in providing some dignity to our profession. There does not appear to be anything wrong with leaving the pricing process to a private arrangement between the client and the translator. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 23:45
Greek to English
+ ...
Establishing minimum standards is NOT price fixing.
Do you guys even know what price fixing is?
"Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price."
There's no such issue with your proposals.
Again, another proof of amateur behavior (such as the case with the undocumented editing/reviewing): we know a phrase in vague terms and we run with it...
[Edi... See more Establishing minimum standards is NOT price fixing.
Do you guys even know what price fixing is?
"Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price."
There's no such issue with your proposals.
Again, another proof of amateur behavior (such as the case with the undocumented editing/reviewing): we know a phrase in vague terms and we run with it...
[Edited at 2008-08-11 15:06] ▲ Collapse
| | | | AWa (X)
Local time: 06:45
English to German
+ ...
| Finally someone who appreciates translators work | Aug 11, 2008 |
just found this in a job offer posted here proZ (notifications already sent):
"1000 words
at 100.000 EUR per word [ TOTAL: 100000.00 EUR ] "
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